No other success can compensate for failure in the home

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Heber13
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by Heber13 » 14 Nov 2017, 13:03

I was married in the temple.
4 children from that marriage.

23 years of marriage. Circumstances as they were, the toxic home situation was not good to keep the marriage together.
My ex-wife filed divorce papers against me. She was mentally unstable.

I'm remarried, my wife has 4 kids.

Between us we have 4 married in the temple, 1 on a mission, 1 in university, 2 attending seminary with straight As in high school.

Looking forward to the holidays with a full house with tons of laughter.

So...do we define my home as a failure or a success??

At one point...there were failures. As life plays out...those turn into successes...greater happiness than we thought possible. Healthy kids growing up with good values and good direction in their lives. Who knows...there may be failures ahead of us we must face again.

We are in the middle of our existence...very difficult to pinpoint what "success" or "failure" applies to when existence is eternal.

This quote SD brings up was one very damaging to my psychie as I went through the down times.

At some point...I had to forget about quotes or what others thought or said about definitive statements on success or failure and take it in context of the point or message they are sending.

I have to be a cafeteria person and use my judgment to apply which quotes apply to which circumstances when discussing which principles of truth. That is how to develop wisdom.

Once I understood that point...I returned to mormonism with that view that all things, all teachings, all scripture, all symbolism, all ordinances, all quotes by prophets...are to be put in context of truth. And we let go of the rest, and don't try to force square pegs into round holes...but just don't use the ones that don't fit. Things Joseph Smith said or did or BY or other prophets...they all had a time and place or application for something. Right or wrong. They were.

The teachings are simply useful to our lives to bring us love and peace, or they are not. Paradox is there...where some are true to some and false to others at the same time. We choose what we hold on to. We choose how we define success. Doesn't matter if others choose differently. We can't escape the experiences we face in life, as we navigate through life. Enjoy the ride!
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

AmyJ
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by AmyJ » 14 Nov 2017, 14:38

Heber13 wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 13:03
So...do we define my home as a failure or a success??
I went through this with my 8 year old daughter recently. She has relapsed into behaviors that are not acceptable in her peer group. Not only that, but she has been very public about it, causing potential shameful situations for our family. These public behaviors will also be the source of much teasing once her peer group realizes what is going on and targets her - it's only a matter of time. We are trying not to look at these behaviors as failures on behalf of our family - it's not that "we didn't teach her not to do these things" - it's just one of her personal challenges right now.
Heber13 wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 13:03
At one point...there were failures. As life plays out...those turn into successes...greater happiness than we thought possible. Healthy kids growing up with good values and good direction in their lives. Who knows...there may be failures ahead of us we must face again.

We are in the middle of our existence...very difficult to pinpoint what "success" or "failure" applies to when existence is eternal.
This... :P
Heber13 wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 13:03
At some point...I had to forget about quotes or what others thought or said about definitive statements on success or failure and take it in context of the point or message they are sending.

I have to be a cafeteria person and use my judgment to apply which quotes apply to which circumstances when discussing which principles of truth. That is how to develop wisdom.
This... :P
Heber13 wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 13:03
Once I understood that point...I returned to mormonism with that view that all things, all teachings, all scripture, all symbolism, all ordinances, all quotes by prophets...are to be put in context of truth. And we let go of the rest, and don't try to force square pegs into round holes...but just don't use the ones that don't fit. Things Joseph Smith said or did or BY or other prophets...they all had a time and place or application for something. Right or wrong. They were.

The teachings are simply useful to our lives to bring us love and peace, or they are not. Paradox is there...where some are true to some and false to others at the same time. We choose what we hold on to. We choose how we define success. Doesn't matter if others choose differently. We can't escape the experiences we face in life, as we navigate through life. Enjoy the ride!
This is what I am currently working on. Figuring out what I believe, and what is important in my life right now.

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Heber13
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by Heber13 » 14 Nov 2017, 15:13

AmyJ wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:38
This is what I am currently working on. Figuring out what I believe, and what is important in my life right now
:thumbup: I honestly feel like that is what God wants us to do, or he would have been a lot more specific in the scriptures.

Those that get inspired write books, and share their views...and others take those books, tweak them and write their own books. More and more books. More and more quotes. More and more framing things from different points of view. All trying to express the feelings we experience.

But ultimately, it becomes our own experience that is most important. Success is what we need.

As Joseph Campbell wrote:
People say that what we're all seeking is a meaning for life. I don't think that's what we're really seeking. I think what we're seeking is an experience of being alive, so that our life experiences on the purely physical plane will have resonance within our own innermost being and reality, so that we actually feel the rapture of being alive. That's what it's all finally about.
Of course, that is just one more quote that might apply to some, but not resonate with others, depending on personal location.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Beefster
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by Beefster » 14 Nov 2017, 17:58

Roy wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 11:02
Because we (as humans) like to maintain our internal locus of control/Just world assumptive reality we can be quick to find fault with people who did not get the desired results. "They must have done it wrong. I will do it better and ensure my desired result."
When I began to let go of the idea that I am in control of the outcome of my life, I began to be a lot happier. Life sucks and we really have very little control over it. We can change things here and there, but mostly in ourselves and somewhat in our immediate spheres of influence.

I think this mechanism is the same one that empowers people when they turn their will over to God. It makes them happy not because God is now in charge, but because they are no longer trying to control the uncontrollable. Sure, God might have something to do with it as well, but given that I don't believe he intervenes much, it's a lot more consistent with my faith paradigm.
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

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dande48
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by dande48 » 14 Nov 2017, 18:06

Like most things in the Church, this quote is given as a preventative measure. Unfortunately, it gives little or no recourse for those who "fail".

One part I agree with. I don't buy into the "point system". Doing good doesn't cancel out the bad, and doing bad doesn't cancel out the good. What the quote fails in, is the narrowness of its focus. I'd rephrase it, "No success can compensate for failure. No failure can cover up success."
"Sir, it's quite possible this asteroid is not entirely stable." - C-3PO

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dande48
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by dande48 » 14 Nov 2017, 18:20

Beefster wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 17:58
When I began to let go of the idea that I am in control of the outcome of my life, I began to be a lot happier.
I've found this too. It's been engrained into us, and not just in the Church, that we are in absolute, complete control of our destinies. Those who are rich and successful, are those who worked hard and deserve it. If you're poor, it's your own fault. Our business success, our relationships, our personality quirks, our health is all a result of what we do. And while I think this idea of "personal responsibility" can be motivating, it can also be dehibilitating.

In a way, I admire the worship of Tyche in the old Greek religion. She was the blind goddess of luck; unstable, inconsistant, blind luck. If a citizen made a fortune from the sale of property, he would go to the temple of Tyche and make a sacrifice in her honor. It was in noble recognition, not of his business prowess, but that forces outside his control granted him success. But when misfortune struck, despite their best efforts, they were able to recognize the fickleness of luck, and the role it played in their lives.
"Sir, it's quite possible this asteroid is not entirely stable." - C-3PO

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Katzpur
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by Katzpur » 17 Nov 2017, 16:30

The "No other success..." quote has caused me more heartache than anything else I've ever heard in church. With two inactive adult kids, both living with significant others, I have apparently been a royal failure in the home. When my son was missionary-aged and there was a missionary farewell in our ward about three out of every four Sundays, I couldn't get through Sacrament Meeting without literally bawling. And whenever one of the hymns sung was "Families Can Be Together Forever," I'd just fall completely apart. Those days are long past, but I don't think I'll ever get over feeling like nothing else I've ever done in my life really matters because I didn't raise two kids who are living the way I thought I was teaching them to. On the positive said, my son thinks my husband and I are the best parents in the world because we're "so accepting and non-judgmental." My daughter wouldn't go quite that far, but we've got a decent relationship, too. Still, it's hard. I wish so much that David O. McKay had realized what devastation that statement would bring into the lives of parents like me.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." ~Rudyard Kipling ~

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DarkJedi
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by DarkJedi » 17 Nov 2017, 16:42

nibbler wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 09:42
AmyJ wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 08:54
SilentDawning wrote:
13 Nov 2017, 17:49
Perhaps we need to define what "success in the home is". What is it, and can this quote be considered somewhat harsh and destructive?
I think the great pitfall here is giving the church the power to define what a "successful" home is. The standard definition of church attendance, temple recommends, missions, etc relies on external benchmarks for a very internal, individual process irregardless of circumstances.
:clap:

This.
Yep. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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SilentDawning
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by SilentDawning » 18 Nov 2017, 05:59

Heber13 wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 13:03
This quote SD brings up was one very damaging to my psychie as I went through the down times.

At some point...I had to forget about quotes or what others thought or said about definitive statements on success or failure and take it in context of the point or message they are sending.

I have to be a cafeteria person and use my judgment to apply which quotes apply to which circumstances when discussing which principles of truth. That is how to develop wisdom.
The sad part about religion is that unlike secular wisdom, there is this undertone of "God said it". "Inspiration", conference talks being "scripture for the next six months". You can't openly pick and choose which quotes you will follow publicly -- it has to be a private, personal decision.

My personal decision is to treat everything the GA's, prophets and apostles say as mere opinion. Unless Ballard is talking about how to do brain surgery, Dallin H Oakes is talking about a point of law within his speciality, or Bednar is talking about how to lead a university, their opinions are simply lay opinions. They are not experts in everything, and they are not even experts in religion -- the BYU professors in the religion area are the experts. And even then, the BYU professors are limited in what they can say to orthodox, supportive, faith-producing comments.

I'm so thankful that my own commitment crisis has liberated my thinking and cleaned out my BS filter to the point I can catch quotes like the one in the Opening post. Prior to my commitment crisis, I thought that was a great quote and would have been willing to cite it to anyone -- even if they had tumultuous times at home. No longer.

There are many advantages to eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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SilentDawning
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Re: No other success can compensate for failure in the home

Post by SilentDawning » 18 Nov 2017, 13:24

Katzpur wrote:
17 Nov 2017, 16:30
I wish so much that David O. McKay had realized what devastation that statement would bring into the lives of parents like me.
You seem to have defined success as children following the textbook path of the church. I decided, when my son was obviously so uninterested in the church from a young age, and I had grown somewhat disillusioned with the church, that I would have to define success differently.

My criterion -- he is happy. With this comes having stayed out of trouble, out of jail, out of problems with the law, and being someone who is generally kind. He is able to hold down a job and sustain himself, and dedicates a certain amount of time to helping others. I have taken "in good health" as far as preventative training allows, out of the equation since he has a chronic illness and the management of it has not been wildly successful, in spite of our best efforts. If you consider your own criteria for what defines success in the home, I think that makes President McKay's statement much less biting and egocentric.

I will say this, the church seems to want to hold members fully responsible for failures and success, even when the agency of others is critical to achieving "success". Take, for example, 100% hometeaching. You can't ignore the fact that members don't want to see you. So why saddle me with the "unsuccessful" label after i tried to see them? Same applies to the quote from DOM.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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