Too Many Reasons to Hide a Porn Problem

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SilentDawning
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Re: Too Many Reasons to Hide a Porn Problem

Post by SilentDawning » 13 Nov 2017, 15:05

I read an article a while ago where the person said that for some, porn keeps marriages intact. There are situations where the emotional love is there, but the physical side is missing. Sometimes the woman has a man who can't perform, so she turns to porn to get rid of the tension, and vice versa. There are people married to people with disabilities, and the sexual dysfunction can really hurt their marriage if there is no expression for it. It can also propel men and women into infidelity situations if porn is not an option. And there are women and certain men, who, as they age, lose interest in sex altogether. The man is then forced to live in a sexless marriage. The article said porn can help get rid of the tension.

So, in certain circumstances, porn can help make a marriage work when there is sexual dysfunction that would otherwise hurt the marriage.

Stigma? Definitely. I only know of one male co-worker who admitted he watches porn. He told me he really likes it. It conjured up all kinds of questions in my mind at the time -- bondage? rough videos? children? Just how far does this guy go? And we've seen that all it takes is one accusation to ruin you. And there is also the "slippery slope" argument that if the guy watches adult porn, he's only one step away from committing more aggressive sexual acts -- potentially even illegal.

You could get one false accusation from a child or a woman, and taken wtih a previous admission the man uses porn, and you've got a strong case for prosecution. If you ever watch the Forensic Files, you'll see that police latch on to any previous statements a suspect may have uttered that support the idea he perpetrated a crime. So I think it behooves anyone in society to be careful how much of the stigmatized side of their lives they share. As you never know when coincidence may put you in a position of being suspected for something you didn't do.

So, in my view, if a person looks at porn, they should never admit it to anyone. The risks are too great.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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Beefster
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Re: Too Many Reasons to Hide a Porn Problem

Post by Beefster » 13 Nov 2017, 21:08

SilentDawning wrote:
13 Nov 2017, 15:05
So, in my view, if a person looks at porn, they should never admit it to anyone. The risks are too great.
This is exactly the problem I am pointing out. It's even worse in the church because of the attachment to worthiness.

I want to dig deeper.

What do you think it is that makes those risks to high?
What do you think can be done to lower that risk?
Do you think it would be worth it?
How would it affect society at large?
Where would you draw the line?
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

AmyJ
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Re: Too Many Reasons to Hide a Porn Problem

Post by AmyJ » 14 Nov 2017, 09:48

Beefster wrote:
13 Nov 2017, 21:08
What do you think it is that makes those risks to high?
I think that it gets abused very easily. I think that the hormones released by those actions are very potent. I think that our society overvalues sexuality and associates it with worth. So it is perceived that the worth of the individual who is not the person using those items gets entangled with that person's actual worth.
Beefster wrote:
13 Nov 2017, 21:08
What do you think can be done to lower that risk?
We need to separate the "worth of souls" from their sexuality as individuals, in our families, and as a society.
We need to teach the next generations what form of dynamite they are playing with when they engage in those activities and the potential consequences.
We need to teach the next generation to have realistic expectations (well, at least within the church). It can be a very awkward conversation, but if we keep shoving it under the rug that this is not going to be a topic of discussion in their marriages, then they are in for a rude awakening especially for the young women who were taught to expect no porn in their marriages.
Beefster wrote:
13 Nov 2017, 21:08
Where would you draw the line?
I am not qualified to judge. I think that where the church currently draws the line does not allow lines of communication and honesty that need to happen. I think that American society in general is more dishonest in explaining the potential consequences are for these behaviors.
I think that indulging in these behaviors can become a habit that needs to be watched carefully in case it becomes an escape or coping mechanism that pulls the individual outside of family life. I absolutely think that any habit that relies on the media requires additional sanctions in the home around children under the age of 12.

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SilentDawning
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Re: Too Many Reasons to Hide a Porn Problem

Post by SilentDawning » 14 Nov 2017, 21:41

What do you think it is that makes those risks to high?
Slippery slope arguments, social taboo, church teaching.
What do you think can be done to lower that risk?
Discuss it with people here who have said they don't think porn is a big deal, in private messages.

Do you think it would be worth it?
Not sure.
How would it affect society at large?
I think you would see more sexually motivated crimes, and fewer restraints on people who have tendencies toward porn.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

Cnsl1
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Re: Too Many Reasons to Hide a Porn Problem

Post by Cnsl1 » 15 Nov 2017, 03:36

SilentDawning wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 21:41
How would it affect society at large?
I think you would see more sexually motivated crimes, and fewer restraints on people who have tendencies toward porn.
Your suspicion follows the popular opinion, but not the data. The evidence suggests otherwise, which is something I discovered a while back when researching a talk on the subject. Consider this: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/al ... al-assault

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SamBee
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Re: Too Many Reasons to Hide a Porn Problem

Post by SamBee » 15 Nov 2017, 10:13

DarkJedi wrote:
12 Nov 2017, 13:00
why did Satan have to tell them they were naked? They could see he wore clothes and even asked about them. They couldn't figure out they were naked? I do have a theory that relates to the topic, but I'm not ready to share it publicly (sorry for the tease). I will say that I'm not sure all guilt (or maybe any guilt) comes from God.
Because the story is partly a metaphor for childhood. What essentially happened was the corruption of nudity. Some tribes still manage to have an unconscious innocence to nudity, but most people in the west come from cultures which wear clothes to protect them from the elements. Before the fruit, they were essentially like little children who will run around naked without a care in the world (which we all did) with no sexual aspect to it at all (for them at least).

One thing I do notice about sexuality in western society is the attempt to remove affection and connection from it completely. A lot of the time it's about having an O, and pleasure, much like eating or getting high. We hear about friends with benefits, or [...] buddies or hook-ups or polyamory (a form of cod polygamy). The bonding and socialization aspect gets removed. This actually makes people more isolated, because they are getting physical pleasure, but not emotional satisfaction. We are ending up becoming more like robots in every way, so it is no surprise that sexual desire is moving in the direction of mechanization.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Too Many Reasons to Hide a Porn Problem

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 16 Nov 2017, 08:22

Beefster wrote:
12 Nov 2017, 12:55
I have come to believe that the worst damage done by pornography comes from secrecy. Yet church culture and policy tends to drive men who have the problem further into the shadows...
To be honest I think the exact opposite of this statement is actually true more often than not. In reality, for many LDS men viewing porn/nudity doesn't cause any noticeable problems by itself as long as no one else that would disapprove knows about it and it is only when their wife, bishop, etc. know about it that it starts to do significant damage to their marriage, reputation, etc. Even then I would argue that in the majority of cases it looks like the primary source of any harm done is not actually the viewing of porn/nudity by itself but rather the Church setting the unrealistic expectation that this should never happen and is impossible to live with, that it makes men "unworthy", etc.

I agree that it is less than ideal that the Church has created such an unforgiving environment dominated by so much fear, condemnation, and shame that puts so much pressure on men to pretend they don't ever view porn/nudity when they really do but personally I don't expect this to change significantly anytime soon. It reminds me of the following quote.
Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:"Sometimes people don’t want to hear the truth because they don’t want their illusions destroyed."
Basically it looks like many LDS women just don't want to believe that their own husband, father, brothers, sons, etc. are viewing porn/nudity on a regular basis. And it looks like many moral crusaders like to think that talking about how bad and bad for you that porn supposedly is will make a significant difference in stopping people from viewing it rather than largely being a case of preaching to the choir and spinning their wheels in a losing battle against human nature.

Is there really that much harm in playing along with what people expect and telling them what they want to hear? I'm not sure that there is, and personally I wouldn't blame anyone for taking the path of least resistance in this case. But if you really want to push back against the pressure to keep this secret then I can't think of anyone in a better position to do so if you are still single and willing to question the Church's approach to things. I know that there are at least some women that are not bothered by porn nearly as much as others if at all.

However, it is definitely risky to test the waters especially in the Church. For example, suppose you are dating someone and you tell them, "I try to avoid porn but haven't been able to stop watching it completely and I can't promise that I'll never look at it again." What do you think is likely to happen in that case? If she is an active and obedient Mormon then there's a good chance that she will not only write you off immediately but also tell her friends and family and before you know it you will be viewed as the resident porn fiend in the neighborhood, singles ward, etc.
"Truth is what works." - William James

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mom3
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Re: Too Many Reasons to Hide a Porn Problem

Post by mom3 » 16 Nov 2017, 10:22

Basically it looks like many LDS women just don't want to believe that their own husband, father, brothers, sons, etc. are viewing porn/nudity on a regular basis.
I disagree here.
  • It's not just LDS women. Many people of other faiths despise pornography.
  • The industry does do damage. That's not religious. That's science.
  • Think Anthony Weiner
  • Child porn is an arrest-able offense
My final thoughts come from a homeless shelter I work at. We have had to block the internet from our volunteers because guests got wind of it and were viewing porn in the evening.

Yes - we could stand to step back on many of our "moral issues" including every naked body, shoulder exposed, bare midriff woman being a harlot or porn provider. However, plenty of non lds experts, psychologists, and so on urge against the use of porn in a persons life.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Roy
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Re: Too Many Reasons to Hide a Porn Problem

Post by Roy » 16 Nov 2017, 10:41

mom3 wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 10:22
Yes - we could stand to step back on many of our "moral issues" including every naked body, shoulder exposed, bare midriff woman being a harlot or porn provider.
I think that there is certainly a spectrum. I think it would be perfectly normal and even healthy and expected for a young unmarried man to gaze at the underwear catalogue for an extended moment.

However, I believe that this same young man could very well be harmed by copious amounts of hardcore material.

With my own children, I wish to provide acceptance for the former while protecting them from (not shaming them from) the latter. Not demonizing natural urges and bodily functions but not debasing ourselves to them either.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

JAC
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Re: Too Many Reasons to Hide a Porn Problem

Post by JAC » 16 Nov 2017, 14:34

While I agree that shame only makes the problem worse, I have good reasons to believe that the harms of pornography go much deeper than the shame caused by religion.

Reason 1:

I've been involved in helping nearly 2 dozen men in my stake overcome their dependence on pornography. I've had intimate discussions with each of them and I have found that 100% of the men over 40 that used pornography reported that their fantasies turned into reality. In other words they committed adultery. All these men eventually had a secret relationship with someone other than their wife. Some had more than one. Some were with women, some with men. Some were more physical than others. One was only an emotional long distance relationship.

My sample size is small, and this is only anecdotal evidence, but I have good reason to believe that fantasy (porn) often leads to reality (affairs). So far I believe that it is inevitable and only a matter of time for most porn users.

Reason 2:

I've been to Sexaholics Anonymous meetings and heard from people that have no religion to speak of. Despite using porn for years with no religion to shame them, they have admitted that they are having huge problems in their lives because of porn and/or sex. Many of these guys aren't even married. Their stories are horrifying.

Reason 3:

I've used porn. A lot. At one point in my life I decided I was not going to let the shame of it weigh me down. I decided I was just going to use it responsibly and keep it secret and lie about it the rest of my life. I was comfortable with that decision and thought it was going to work out. It didn't! Porn sucked the joy out of my life and soured my relationship with my wife. She didn't even know I was using it, but porn definitely crippled our relationship. I quit at age 33, and it was the best decision I ever made.

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