"Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

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Poppyseed
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by Poppyseed » 01 Oct 2009, 01:53

Ray Degraw wrote:Fwiw, there is an inherent conflict between unconditional LOVE and unconditional LAW. The first is possible; the second is not.

Yes, learning to love unconditionally is a critically important aspect of this discussion, but someone can love someone else unconditionally and still disapprove of their actions - as is evidenced by almost everyone here in this forum when you talk about things that others do that drive you nuts and make you want to leave the Church sometimes. Think about that - at length, if necessary.

The key isn't becoming so open that you lose your own personal beliefs and internal standards - or even that the Church as an organization be totally accepting of all actions. The key, imo, is to understand fully the following:
let them worship how, where or what they may
The LDS Church can't be for all, but it CAN offer a theology that opens the same eternal reward for all - and it does that more so than ANY other theology within Christianity. Its members don't always understand that, but its core theology gives eternal hope and grace to the hopeless and condemned in mortality - specifically because it is both open to radical change in mortal understanding and policy AND leaves all judgment, in the end, truly to a loving Father.

I would LOVE to see the Church be more accommodating to gay members, but I also LOVE that the 2nd and 11th Articles of Faith leave the possibility door open for them to be exalted even if they can't be accommodated fully in the Church - now and perhaps ever.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

I believe that there are doctrinal changes the church literally can't make and shouldn't have to. But I do see the possibilities for growth in the middle ground. And I know that perhaps I don't have the best experiential evidence to hope....but I still have the hope that these struggles will forge new capacities for helping people not only deal with pain but become reconcilled to Christ at the same time. And I don't confine that hope to SSA only.

How I personally have longed for a place like Rix describes where judgment just isn't part of the deal with friendship. Could you use another member to your group, Rix? :) How I have wished that I didn't have to hide my struggles and that I had trusted friends I could lean on? Had my experience been different, I dont' know if I would be battling with the church like I am now. But at the very same time, I do have a testimony of the gospel as it is taught. I do believe the gospel and the church are very different entities. It's not a complete knowledge but it is something that I can't in all good conscience deny even though my pain would have me walk away and never come back. I am learning thru my own recovery process that there is so much more wiggle room inside the gospel of JC than I had previously seen or known! I think that is a tremendous thing and I feel grateful that God has helped me understand a few perspectives that way. Perhaps this is where the church needs to open its focus of teaching. I hope the church can learn how to hold its firm position while extending its spectrum of outreach. I know God is able to do that. I think the church is trying and I honestly believe the church has so much love to offer people with SSA or a whole bunch of other stuff. Sometimes I think it stumbles because it has to defend itself. But the church is run by people.....people who are not completely like Christ yet. And part of the Christian deal is supporting all of us in our weakness and deficits. If the people in the church could just simply drop the judgy thing, wouldn't that be a tremendous improvement all by itself? I also think another tremendous boon would be if we each could forgive the church and the people in it more, especially when we fail or lack some piece of Christlike love.

Swim. I agree with all your last comments. The wives! The children! And the husbands too. We stand invisable in the damage path and everyone is so darn focused on the tornado! We need more Jacobs in the church leadership. We really do.

But maybe those of us with these big crosses to bear need to adjust our thinking too. The church can't be everything and perhaps it is unrealistic to think that a man in a suit will always say the right healing thing for every single person. And for those who aren't familiar with these heart wrenching struggles, perhaps it is unfair to expect that they should have all the empathy that is needed. And maybe it is on us not to interpret every dictate from the pulpit as hurtful. I mean in the end, becoming offended because of anothers weakness is a choice. And it certainly isn't the only choice.

We can figure this out. I believe!!!!!!!
Last edited by Poppyseed on 01 Oct 2009, 04:10, edited 2 times in total.
“Be not afraid of growing slowly; be afraid only of standing still.” --old Chinese proverb

George
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Joined: 19 Jul 2009, 15:51

Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by George » 01 Oct 2009, 02:06

I have faithfully and carefully read every comment in this thread. I have only spoken once, on page 8 as I told the story of my 2 brothers and eldest son. There seems to have been little progress in changing the individual opinions expressed (quite beautifully by the way), on both sides of this issue. I feel strengthened in the vast unconditional love expressed toward our gay children. I am sadden by some who feel change may never come, that gay and lesbian members may do well to seek spiritual refreshment elsewhere. I know though, there is truth in that position also. Thousands (maybe tens of thousands), have left the church after losing hope for any real change.

What bothers me with such a stance is the reality we should consider encouraging our same-gender attracted children to leave early, for their emotional and spiritual health. At what age then do we become involved, 12, 15, 19 (certainly before a mission I would think)? And to what degree do we allow well meaning ecclesiastical leaders to counsel our children? I have a lot of guilt, my friends. I long suspected (before my son came out), where his journey was headed (remember two gay brothers?). Yet I allowed my son to endure the hurt, pain, rejection, thoughts of suicide, because I wanted a son who served a mission, found the right girl, married in the temple, gave me some grandkids. I have apologized for my lack of strength in standing with him through his difficult years. He has accepted my apology.

I have seen change in my long life. When I was a teenager, it was taught homosexuality was next to murder, even openly from the pulpit. I have not heard such a damaging talk in a long while. I hope I never do again.

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Rix
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by Rix » 01 Oct 2009, 07:45

George wrote:I have seen change in my long life. When I was a teenager, it was taught homosexuality was next to murder, even openly from the pulpit. I have not heard such a damaging talk in a long while. I hope I never do again.
Thank you George for your heartfelt comments. I think we can take solace that we ARE seeing change in the church; no, not fast enough, but it is happening. LDS members are certainly some of the most loving people I know, and really want to do the right thing. The youth of the church seem to understand this issue better than we older folks...so I have hope that as the church grows up, significant change will happen.

I met with a man in pain last night. He is married with children but hasn't had a real conversation with his wife for four months. He has had a relationship with another man and feels deep guilt about it. As he has sought help from his bishop, he gets more guilt and, IMO, false hope. So many people in his life are being impacted by his situation. He wants help but is very confused about where to turn. My heart aches for him. He needs some hope that somewhere there is true acceptance and love in his life...but it seems hopeless.

These situations are not uncommon in the church. How many more obituaries do we need to read before we will do something? Pain affects change, but how much more pain will it take to learn the lesson?

:cry: :oops:
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche

God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that. -- Joseph Campbell

MWallace57
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Joined: 23 Jul 2009, 03:12

Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by MWallace57 » 01 Oct 2009, 09:42

I have never before, nor will I ever advocate that the LDS Church lower it's standards with respect to marriage or the law of chastity.

What I am advocating is that the Church maintain her standards. My requests have always been the same. My requests do not change. I have asked that the Church protect all copyrighted materials as well as the name of the Church. The name of the Church contains the name of the Savior. Currently, in Utah, there are a few "Hate Groups" that actively and openly advocate harm (hate crimes) against homosexual persons. Right now, they use the name of the Church and Church copyrighted materials to say, "see, we are approved by the Church", we are doing the Lord's work in cleansing the earth, we are good. It is just good practice for the Church to protect her copyrighted materials and it is absolutely evil to use the name of the Lord to justify hate crimes.

My second request is that the Church not form any alliances with any group that is listed as a "terrorist organization" or "hate group". We had this problem back in the 1977. There were three groups that openly and actively opposed the Equal Rights Amendments. One of the National Eagle Forum, the other two were the LDS Church and and Klu Klux Klan. When we are actively pursuing any legitimate civil cause, it is vitally important that we NOT form alliances with hate groups. We should make this rule stand with NO exceptions.

This is a copy and paste:

Document 8: John M. Crewdson, "Mormon Turnout Overwhelms Women's Conference in Utah," New York Times, 25 July 1977. Reprinted in National Women's Conference Official Briefing Book: Houston, Texas, November 18 to 21, 1977 (Washington, D.C.: National Commission on the Observance of International Women's Year, 1977), pp. 234-35.

Introduction

Women committed to change clashed with those against it, at the state and territory meetings held to elect delegates to the NWC. Opponents of the NWC agenda were typically affiliated with conservative and New-Right groups including Phyllis Schlafly's Eagle Forum, Stop ERA, the John Birch Society, the Relief Society of the Mormon Church, and the Klu Klux Klan.

END OF COPY AND PASTE

Ok, I don't like the "Reflief Society of the Mormon Church, being list right next to the Klu Klux Klan. You will notice that something as benign and well intentioned as hosting a territorial conference on women can bring various elements into the organization. Political alliances are formed, friendships are forged. The LDS Relief Society should stay strictly separate from all of these other groups. We should meet and send our own delegates to conferences and political meetings. That would mean that our current Relief Society President (or counselors) would ALWAYS be are delegate to represent us. We would NOT allow ourselves (as women) to be represented by any other person. We support and sustain our Relief Society President. She is called of God to speak for us collectively and to represent our interests. We simply must not allow some of these others groups (listed above) to use the name of the Church and speak for us. The Relief Society is one of the oldest and largest woman's organizations on earth. We deserve to be represented politically, but I don't want a radical, right-wing extremist group to speak for me. Much of the severe, anti-gay, material circulation is coming from these groups who are using the LDS Church as a front.

swimordie
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by swimordie » 01 Oct 2009, 21:00

George wrote:What bothers me with such a stance is the reality we should consider encouraging our same-gender attracted children to leave early, for their emotional and spiritual health. At what age then do we become involved, 12, 15, 19 (certainly before a mission I would think)?
Fascinating article in Sunday's NYT Magazine about middle-schoolers dealing with SSA. This article will REALLY make you think, regardless your perspective on the topic:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/magaz ... f=magazine
Perfectionism hasn't served me. I think I am done with it. -Poppyseed

George
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by George » 02 Oct 2009, 00:09

swimordie wrote:
George wrote:What bothers me with such a stance is the reality we should consider encouraging our same-gender attracted children to leave early, for their emotional and spiritual health. At what age then do we become involved, 12, 15, 19 (certainly before a mission I would think)?
Fascinating article in Sunday's NYT Magazine about middle-schoolers dealing with SSA. This article will REALLY make you think, regardless your perspective on the topic:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/magaz ... f=magazine
Thank you swimordie. The article brings hope to young lives. Both my brothers said they knew from about the age of six or seven, that they were different. By twelve they had no doubt where their gender attraction was. The same with my son. Have I mentioned that my father had three brothers who never married? We were not privileged to know why (it was a closeted generation). In fact, Dad didn't marry till his 40's. He never really explained why either.

George
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by George » 02 Oct 2009, 20:31

It appears that this long thread has reached its end (as all popular threads eventually do). There is a postscript I'm like to add. I've been thinking about it for a day or two, but couldn't decide if it was perhaps off subject (well sort of). From my comments at other places in this website, many know I'm of Native American heritage. Dad was white, but mom was Muscogee (Creek) and I hold citizenship there.

When the French first came to Canada they found that some Indian men lived differently, in they worked at what was considered women's duties (gender accepted divisions of labor). The French called them a nasty name. But in reality, nearly all Native tribes gave very special recognition to gay/lesbian people. They were considered exceptional as they were of "two spirits." Given a special status with their tribes, they were also healers & advice counselors (especially for young men having trouble with girl friends). The custom was very common in Southwestern tribes also. I observed a couple of practitioners among the Navajo while on my mission half a century ago.

It took several hundred years, but eventually Native tribes were taught homophobia as a cultural value from the white man, especially by his various churches. I wonder if Native people had continued their own religions, if there might be less hating and more love on our reservations today. I know there would be less poverty. Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Last edited by George on 03 Oct 2009, 15:32, edited 3 times in total.

MadamCurie
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by MadamCurie » 02 Oct 2009, 20:45

Thanks, George. I always appreciate your cultural insights.

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bridget_night
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by bridget_night » 08 Oct 2009, 15:34

My friend from Denmark just gave me this link that is appropriate here. Watch the utube and tell me what you think. This was so my son. Also notice the commentary and how hateful some lds members can be to gays.


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