"Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

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Rix
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by Rix » 24 Sep 2009, 17:56

wordsleuth23 wrote: 20 years from now, Elder Hafen's talk will be right there with McConkie's strong statements about blacks and the priesthood--imo.
Mine too.

;)
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche

God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that. -- Joseph Campbell

Poppyseed
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by Poppyseed » 24 Sep 2009, 18:27

We did say that to my brother over and over. My father even talked about the science and the biology and completely accepted that these parts might not change. No one put any pressure on him to change these things! None of us. My father even suggested many scenerios including finding a life partner....albeit a nonsexual partner. I talked about meeting his friends and having them over. I guess my point is we all went as far as we could go to let him know that we loved him and that the disagreeing parts wouldn't stop that. We tried to think outside the box and listen and understand. My brother couldn't meet us with the same reaction. He is too wrapped up in shame and fear and he simply won't discuss anything but the weather and work. I don't even know where he lives. He told me that I was only allowed to call his cel or email him. He won't return my emails. He is choosing NOT to deal. Its a sad situation as it holds us all hostage. Its ok though. I hand his life to him and the rest to God.

And truthfully, I am trying to go as far as I can to meet you Rix and others here as far as I can. I honestly can't go where you want me to. I know I am a minority here. I hope you'll let me stay and rub shoulders with you anyway. :oops:



And thank you wordsleuth for your views. I am not sure I understand it all either. I am trusting my gut.
“Be not afraid of growing slowly; be afraid only of standing still.” --old Chinese proverb

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Rix
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by Rix » 24 Sep 2009, 19:01

Poppyseed wrote:
And truthfully, I am trying to go as far as I can to meet you Rix and others here as far as I can. I honestly can't go where you want me to. I know I am a minority here. I hope you'll let me stay and rub shoulders with you anyway. :oops:
ABSOLUTELY! That is what this is all about. Dialogue triggers heartfelt soul searching...and that brings wisdom. PLEASE continue! For you...and your brother's sake.

I'm going to say a few more things. PLEASE know that this is my experience and belief -- I don't presume it to be true for everybody. This seems true for me, but that's all I really know....

I often hear "love the sinner, hate the sin." I haven't found that to be very realistic in the church. Most LGBTs I know are extremely wise, and see through this false veil. You see, a person's passions reflect his very soul...and a love for another -- even if the same sex -- project who he is. So if you can't accept his love for another man, you really can't accept, and truly love him. By your comments, I assume this is where your brother is. Now, I know history is difficult to change, and many "minorities" take on a victim attitude. It's hard to get past that, and you can only do your best to tell him you REALLY accept him...and his behaviors, with sincere love. I hope you can do that -- for both your sake. Family is so important, and your capacity to reunite your family may be the most important thing you do in your life. IMHO.
And thank you wordsleuth for your views. I am not sure I understand it all either. I am trusting my gut.
That is all you can do. But I hope you can keep your heart open enough to let love win the battle. Whatever that is for you.

I sincerely wish you the best!
:)
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche

God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that. -- Joseph Campbell

George
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by George » 24 Sep 2009, 20:45

My brother Bill accepted his sexuality early on. He came out to my parents upon graduation from high school. My dad paid for a month's rent in a motel and told him to find his way (alone) in the world. The next we knew he was in Holly wood & the gay life style became his norm. He found love eventually & spent 25 years with his companion. He was very much involved in the caregiving of our folks in their old age (though dad never spoke of his sexuality). He died at age 51 (possibly AIDS). I told my folks at their front door early one Sept. morning. They were crushed. His companion (who only I knew well), led the family in his Catholic funeral mass (he'd converted). We wept together.

My brother Len never accepted his sexuality. He joined the service & took language training in Japan. He returned, married, fathered 3 children. He has lived underground in his sexuality always, even after his marriage ended. He fled to a distant city and lived the bar/one night stand life. Finally he moved to NY and found a companion. They were together for seventeen years. Our folks never knew of his lifestyle, or never acknowledged it. He didn't come home for holidays. Today I have brought him back to our area. I have become his partial caregiver. We talk and spend one day a week together. He is my brother forever. He is an atheist now.

I don't know if unconditional love toward both of them would have changed anything. I just know my folks missed out on much not really knowing how special they both were. And speaking of special, my gay son in Santa Fe. How proud I am of his activist stance in civil and social rights, his concern for the environment, his amazing spirituality (exLDS RM), and his concern for his birth family. If he someday marries a friend, I'll pay for the wedding. And If he doesn't gain Heaven, I will join him in Hades. He is my son.
Last edited by George on 24 Sep 2009, 21:13, edited 7 times in total.

MWallace57
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by MWallace57 » 24 Sep 2009, 20:47

The following is a copy and paste:

MALE HOMOSEXUALITY IS LINKED TO X CHROMOSOME.

How much of human behavior is genetic? This controversial question has recently been raised with regard to homosexuality, because of twin studies and reported structural differences in the brains of homosexuals (see Journal Watch accession number 910917008).

A team at the National Institutes of Health took family histories from 114 gay men and noted that the men tended to have gay relatives on the mother's side of the family, but not on the father's side. This tendency, confirmed in interviews with relatives, suggested a trait passed on by mothers exclusively, which in turn suggested a gene on the X chromosome. Using genetic mapping, the team found that a set of five genetic markers at the tip of the long arm of the X chromosome were identical in 33 of 40 pairs of homosexual brothers. This finding indicates with more than 99 percent certainty that a gene associated with homosexuality lies in that area of chromosome X.

Comment: This research should be easy to confirm or dispute. If a gene is identified, a host of questions arise: What is the function of this gene and the protein it encodes? How likely is a male carrying the gene to be homosexual, and what fraction of gay males carry it? Does the gene affect females? The race is on for the answers.

— ALK

Published in Journal Watch General Medicine August 6, 1993
Citation(s):

Hamer DH et al. A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome and male sexual orientation. Science 1993 Jul 16 261 321-327.

MadamCurie
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by MadamCurie » 24 Sep 2009, 23:01

MWallace,

That is a neat study. Here is what Wikipedia has to say about that study, and several addition ones (including a meta-analysis) that replicated the findings:

Chromosome linkage studies

Chromosome linkage studies of sexual orientation have indicated the presence of multiple contributing genetic factors throughout the genome. In 1993, Dean Hamer and colleagues published findings from a linkage analysis of a sample of 76 gay brothers and their families.[15] Hamer et al. found that the gay men had more gay male uncles and cousins on the maternal side of the family than on the paternal side. Gay brothers who showed this maternal pedigree were then tested for X chromosome linkage, using twenty-two markers on the X chromosome to test for similar alleles. In another finding, thirty-three of the forty sibling pairs tested were found to have similar alleles in the distal region of Xq28, which was significantly higher than the expected rates of 50% for fraternal brothers. This was popularly (but inaccurately) dubbed as the 'gay gene' in the media, causing significant controversy.

A later analysis by Hu et al. replicated and refined these findings. This study revealed that 67% of gay brothers in a new saturated sample shared a marker on the X chromosome at Xq28.[16] Sanders et al. (1998) replicated the study, finding 66% Xq28 marker sharing in 54 pairs of gay brothers.[17] Although two other studies (Bailey et al., 1999; McKnight and Malcolm, 2000) failed to find a preponderance of gay relatives in the maternal line of homosexual men[17], a rigorous replication of the maternal loading was reported on samples in Italy in England. One study by Rice et al. in 1999 failed to replicate the Xq28 linkage results.[18] Meta-analysis of all available linkage data indicates a significant link to Xq28, but also indicates that additional genes must be present to account for the full heritability of sexual orientation.

Mustanski et al. (2005) performed a full-genome scan (instead of just an X chromosome scan) on individuals and families previously reported on in Hamer et al. (1993) and Hu et al. (1995), as well as additional new subjects.[19] With the larger sample set and complete genome scan, the study found somewhat reduced linkage for Xq28 than reported by Hamer et al. However, they did find other markers with significant likelihood scores at 8p12, 7q36 and 10q26. Interestingly, one of the links showed highly significant maternal loading, thus further confirming the previous family studies.

swimordie
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by swimordie » 24 Sep 2009, 23:25

@ Poppy:

I love that you're staying engaged in this discussion. Thank you for sometimes being the lone voice. I hope you understand how much we all appreciate and respect your views. For me personally, it's been great to "get to know you" on this forum.

And I love so much what Rix said. Very beautiful and compassionate. I feel so, so strongly that love is the overriding principle in this whole conundrum, which is why I made such a radical change in my own lifestyle. I hope and pray that love will eventually win, whatever that means and whatever that looks like.
Perfectionism hasn't served me. I think I am done with it. -Poppyseed

MWallace57
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by MWallace57 » 25 Sep 2009, 00:58

Thanks, Madam,

Those studies have since been refined. There is so much new information that is becoming available and it is exciting. Some researchers are even talking about a distant future that involves treatments for many conditions. I want to keep my mind open and continue to study and learn. I reject arguments on either side that sound authoritative or conclusive - we have too much to learn, so much we don't know. God is the only one who truly "Knoweth all things".

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Heber13
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by Heber13 » 25 Sep 2009, 05:20

George wrote:I don't know if unconditional love toward both of them would have changed anything. I just know my folks missed out on much not really knowing how special they both were. And speaking of special, my gay son in Santa Fe. How proud I am of his activist stance in civil and social rights, his concern for the environment, his amazing spirituality (exLDS RM), and his concern for his birth family. If he someday marries a friend, I'll pay for the wedding. And If he doesn't gain Heaven, I will join him in Hades. He is my son.
George, your post was beautiful, and really touched me on many levels. Thank you for sharing such a tender experience. I think we are supposed to learn to love and accept people the way they are...and leave the judgments to God. That is true Charity. Thank you for sharing.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Heber13
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Re: "Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

Post by Heber13 » 25 Sep 2009, 05:26

Poppyseed wrote:And truthfully, I am trying to go as far as I can to meet you Rix and others here as far as I can. I honestly can't go where you want me to. I know I am a minority here. I hope you'll let me stay and rub shoulders with you anyway. :oops:
This is why I respect you, Poppyseed. You stand up for what you believe, and allow others the same.

As a side note, my sister cut me off for a while (completely different scenario, but the same attitude). I never stopped emailing or joking with her to keep a relationship open. After about 10 years, she's in a place where she is able to be around me and my family and make the effort to have a bro/sis relationship again. She told me last month her goal is to make the effort to come see me and my house. I'm happy we are now reconnecting. Sometimes they just need time...and that's ok.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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