Of Testimonies and Twelve Year Olds

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
User avatar
DarkJedi
Posts: 6085
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Of Testimonies and Twelve Year Olds

Post by DarkJedi » 25 Jun 2017, 03:56

Christofferson's statement was given before the "November policy" Reuben. However, I don't think this is cherry picking any more than many other things are cherry picking. Mormons are pretty good at cherry picking in this manner - taking an obscure scripture or isolated quote and making it a big deal. Other churches are also very good at it. Every anti-gay scripture is such cherry picking. Likewise, we Mormons like to take quotes from long ago and make them relevant. How many people still quote McConkie? I recently attended a priesthood lesson where I don't think a single quote used was more recent that the 1960s.

Cherry picking, maybe, but definitely relevant. I actually believe the example of this girl (Savannah) is the exception to the rule. I don't believe most leaders would have cut her off, although that may be because they didn't think of it in the moment. On the other hand, I also believe most leaders do have a modicum of respect for those speaking, even and maybe especially for youth, and some "professionalism" in what they do.

FWIW, I am aware of several members of my own ward, and some in the stake, including myself, who have openly expressed support of civil gay marriage without repercussion. I think that's typical.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 16137
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Of Testimonies and Twelve Year Olds

Post by Curt Sunshine » 25 Jun 2017, 11:56

The official policy about members supporting same-sex marriage publicly, as stated in 2015, hasn't changed one bit. The only change has been the November baptism restriction. It is a big change, but it didn't impact the previous statement in the slightest.

This isn't cherry-picking. It is stating the current policy.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 16137
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Of Testimonies and Twelve Year Olds

Post by Curt Sunshine » 25 Jun 2017, 12:49

I also need to make something very clear:

I don't believe there is a "bad guy" in the actual, original experience. Savannah was sincere; her parents didn't set it up to be what it became; the SP Counselor let it go all the way until she started talking about hoping for a same-sex marrriage (which I think is fine to say, but I understand why he felt uncomfortable with it); etc. It looks like good, sincere people trying to deal with a tricky situation, even if we wish it wasn't so tricky.

I hope nobody demonizes the SP Counselor who was put in a spot for which he probably had not planned and which he didn't anticipate. All of us have made mistakes in the heat of the moment, including mistakes against children (probably). I hope we don't use this as a hammer, one way or another, or we will be guilty of "using" this sweet girl in a real and reprehensible way.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Roy
Posts: 5129
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Of Testimonies and Twelve Year Olds

Post by Roy » 25 Jun 2017, 13:38

I agree that there are no bad guys in this. However the organization does passively inflict harm upon gay individuals. It is a hard thing if there is nobody to blame. On one hand we do not want people to blame all the membership and assume that all members are "homophobic" simply by being a member. On the other hand there is nobody specific to blame either, it certainly does not seem like President Monson is behind it.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 16137
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Of Testimonies and Twelve Year Olds

Post by Curt Sunshine » 25 Jun 2017, 14:29

I have no problem laying the responsibility at the feet of the overall leadership for a long time and the decisions that have created the issue for homosexual members. None. The policies created the reaction.

I just don't want to cast the SP Counselor as an uncaring bigot, as I have seen done elsewhere. Nothing in the video proves either aspect of that portrayal.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Roy
Posts: 5129
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Of Testimonies and Twelve Year Olds

Post by Roy » 25 Jun 2017, 14:56

I concur. he seemed to have responded in a somewhat awkward and unprepared fashion.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Post Reply