Sense of Place

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SamBee
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Sense of Place

Post by SamBee » 15 Jun 2017, 15:04

Do Mormons in Utah, Idaho etc have a better sense of place than other Americans? (Excluding Native Americans of course, Puerto Ricans and Hawaiians.)
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Roy
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Re: Sense of Place

Post by Roy » 15 Jun 2017, 15:58

Please describe what you mean by "sense of place".
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“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

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LookingHard
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Re: Sense of Place

Post by LookingHard » 15 Jun 2017, 19:42

I would say they have a bit more of a sense of heritage. I have no pioneer ancestors and I just have never been able to get into pioneer day (I live far from Utah). Even when I was in Primary I kept thinking, "why are we doing this?"

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Minyan Man
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Re: Sense of Place

Post by Minyan Man » 15 Jun 2017, 20:33

LookingHard wrote:
15 Jun 2017, 19:42
I would say they have a bit more of a sense of heritage. I have no pioneer ancestors and I just have never been able to get into pioneer day (I live far from Utah). Even when I was in Primary I kept thinking, "why are we doing this?"
I'm a convert to the church & live in the mid-west. I thought I was the only member of the church until I did some family history.
Since doing FH, I've found quite a few members of the church & early members too.

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Re: Sense of Place

Post by Ray DeGraw » 15 Jun 2017, 22:07

I would say they have a stronger sense of place than most, but not all, Americans. Lots of other Americans who still live where their ancestors settled have a similarly strong sense of place.

I wouldn't say it is "better". I prefer a more expansive, inclusive sense of place.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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Reuben
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Re: Sense of Place

Post by Reuben » 16 Jun 2017, 00:05

LookingHard wrote:
15 Jun 2017, 19:42
I would say they have a bit more of a sense of heritage. I have no pioneer ancestors and I just have never been able to get into pioneer day (I live far from Utah). Even when I was in Primary I kept thinking, "why are we doing this?"
But... but... you don't have to push a handcart to be a pioneer!

Look, kid, I'm trying to help you reinterpret your heritage in terms of mine, and you're not even trying. You'll never feel included unless you let yourself be absorbed into the narrative.

You have two options. 1. You had stalwart pioneer ancestors who triumphed over persecution and hardship through faith and sacrifice, whose descendants all remained true to the faith. 2. You are a stalwart pioneer who will triumph over persecution and hardship through faith and sacrifice, whose descendants will all remain true to the faith. Now, where do you fit?
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Love before dogma. Truth before loyalty. Knowledge before sanctity or certainty.

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SamBee
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Re: Sense of Place

Post by SamBee » 16 Jun 2017, 02:05

Roy wrote:
15 Jun 2017, 15:58
Please describe what you mean by "sense of place".
https://www.planetizen.com/node/56165

http://www.importanceofplace.com/2009/0 ... e.html?m=1
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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DarkJedi
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Re: Sense of Place

Post by DarkJedi » 16 Jun 2017, 05:33

I think Utah Mormons do have a sense of place, probably especially those who have "pioneer heritage." I do think there are other Americans who have a similar sense of place. Go talk to a dyed in the wool Brooklyner and you'll find that there's no better place in the world. I think the same could be said for other major cities like Boston or Chicago. I also think there are some who live in the rural heartland or wide open spaces of the west (like Montana) who have a similar sense of place.

In my own case, my small town in the rural Northeast is my place. My children were born at the same hospital where my mother and I were born and before my mother people weren't born in the hospital - but they were born here. My family history in this area goes back to the early 1800s. My 10th great grandfather signed the Mayflower Pact (what do you think about that Utah pioneers? :P ). My wife is also a direct Mayflower descendant, I'm not sure what kind of royalty that makes our kids. My ancestors fought the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812 and the Civil War. There are people here that I have literally known my whole life. In short, there is no place I'd rather live.

A friend of mine is a transplant to this area, having grown up in Montana. He frequently returns there and other western states and longs for the type of recreation and open spaces there. His own children (similar in age to ours, now all young adults), although they have accompanied him, don't share his enthusiasm. He has realized over the years that's because that's his home, not theirs. This is their home. They like like it here.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Heber13
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Re: Sense of Place

Post by Heber13 » 16 Jun 2017, 09:32

I would not say so.

I do like the idea and the importance of place as a factor for people. But...Utah and Idaho are kind of less so from other places in America that have this sense it seems the definitions are focused on.

I have lived in NJ, and see the NY/NJ/PA/CT area have an extreme self of place, with deep roots back to colonial days, and many of my friends there were multi-generational Easterners that think there is no greater place in the world...went to school and found jobs there and had a good sense of that. I sense this also in Boston and Chicago.

I have lived in California and find it less so there. Most people love to move to CA for it's weather and coastline...but many find living expense so high they move elsewhere to live more comfortably.

I have lived in Ohio and find a sense of place there, especially if you talk to Buck-Eye fans.

I have family in Texas and sense a strong self of place there, in fact, they often still talk about seceding from the union every 10 yrs or so, there is some politician there still floating those ideas. They have a strong sense of their Texas past.

I have spent time in Quebec Canada and find a stronger sense of place there than elsewhere...they are even Canadians that feel different than other Canadians...with the language and culture difference they hold on to with great pride of who they are. Often they are generations living there without much mobilization.

I have spent time in Louisiana and find the south to be very much a place of strong sense of place, with accents and language and lifestyle all their own that reinforces it.

I have lived in Utah and Montana. I find some of it, probably more in Montana than Utah. Idaho also. I find with farming changes in the past 50 years, Idaho doesn't have a strong sense of place, from what I observe.

I spent time outside the US, in Canada, Europe, Singapore, Australia. Hard for me to compare, since I only visited or worked there in limited times, but I sense America does have a feeling for me as the "place" I'm from, and a good feeling coming back to it.

Out of all of them, I might say my observations are that Utah is less so than other places back east, more so than places in the west, like Arizona and parts of California and Oregon. Utah has recently grown through technology bringing people in to the state, and lots of people I know that move away from utah for better jobs elsewhere, and families are more willing to do that than some stronger pulls in other strong culture places like NY or Texas or Quebec areas.

Of course, all of that is coming from my observations, and my experience. My ancestors were in the Martin Handcart company. The father died, the son named Heber was 13 years old when he led the family the rest of the way, with sick mother in the handcart as he and his sister took turns pulling her and the younger siblings. My mother's side of the family were also in the pioneer wagon trains with stories of red-heads from the scottish background attracting attention from the Indians.

Pioneer stories on both sides of my family. Mormonism runs deep in my family on all sides. Today...my siblings live in NC, NJ, CA, TX, UT, MT. We can't get any more spread out than we are. Do we have a sense of "place"? Doesn't seem like it. Our place is in America where we can find jobs.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Heber13
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Re: Sense of Place

Post by Heber13 » 16 Jun 2017, 09:53

DarkJedi wrote:
16 Jun 2017, 05:33
A friend of mine is a transplant to this area, having grown up in Montana. He frequently returns there and other western states and longs for the type of recreation and open spaces there. His own children (similar in age to ours, now all young adults), although they have accompanied him, don't share his enthusiasm.
I think Montana has a unique draw to it...fewer people, spread out, mountains and rivers and outdoor life. That appeals to some, but not to others...but I could see that unique sense of place is what could give some people that draw...I mean...bears, deer, elk, moose, mountain lions, bison...there is a uniqueness to it, and those who love that stuff can glob on to that emotionally.

Idaho...although close and somewhat similar...just doesn't have that same feel to it. It is flat and farmland and just not that interesting. My cousins who all grew up there have all moved away from there. There isn't a "Idaho" pull or uniqueness that is too appealing. Not as much it seems.

I think Utah is more like Idaho, and Colorado is more like Montana as far as the "place" people identify with their families. I sense it stronger back east in NY/NJ/PA/CT.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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