Why the Church abuses

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Ray DeGraw
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Re: Why the Church abuses

Post by Ray DeGraw » 14 Jun 2017, 13:21

I described it in a thread you started, ironically. :D

Here is the post itself, for anyone who is interested in a discussion about that story.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3354&hilit=Isaac
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SilentDawning
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Re: Why the Church abuses

Post by SilentDawning » 15 Jun 2017, 10:01

Ray DeGraw wrote:
14 Jun 2017, 13:21
I described it in a thread you started, ironically. :D

Here is the post itself, for anyone who is interested in a discussion about that story.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3354&hilit=Isaac
Yes, it is ironic. Five years ago ironic though...and I had asked a question in that thread to which I didn't see an answer from Ray -- perhaps you could answer the question there, or here, or whereever you think it fits. That may be why I felt the question was unresolved.

Here was my question -- after you indicated God was testing Abraham to see if he had ABANDONED the blind obedience culture, and Abraham failed the test, I asked this:
Got it Ray. I like your interpretation.

However, didn't God say he would reward Abraham for his actions with the Abrahamic Covenant? How could Abraham fail the test yet get eternal reward for failing it?
I didn't see your answer to that in the thread....and I'm interested in your response.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

Roy
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Re: Why the Church abuses

Post by Roy » 15 Jun 2017, 11:29

Just for myself, the scriptures are written by men that overlay a certain religious narrative over events that may or may not have actually happened.

This allows for the men to justify the wrong doings and even atrocities as being sanctioned by God.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Ray DeGraw
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Re: Why the Church abuses

Post by Ray DeGraw » 15 Jun 2017, 12:02

George Washington didn't lie, ever, in the original narratives.

Thomas Jefferson didn't have children through sex with a slave / servant.

John F. Kennedy wasn't a serial adulterer, while married to a beautiful, popular First Lady.

A few Popes weren't violent, lustful perverts.

Mormon polygamy had nothing to do with hormones - at least, not the LDS version(s).

Abraham was a perfect man, so everything he did can be explained by adding a covenant, prophetic element.

People are people. Believers are believers. Critics are critics. Justifiers are justifiers. Humans are human.

Confirmation bias is fascinating, and nobody here is immune from it just because our views have changed in some ways over time. Abraham can be whomever we want him to be, and so can anyone else. I try to be as charitable as possible - and I like the "Abraham failed narrative" primarily because of how charitable I think it is (toward him and, by extension, all of us).
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Ray DeGraw
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Re: Why the Church abuses

Post by Ray DeGraw » 15 Jun 2017, 12:04

/Back to the focus of the post (Abraham and Isaac is a good example of abuse, so let's not let it stray from that focus.)
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SilentDawning
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Re: Why the Church abuses

Post by SilentDawning » 18 Jun 2017, 06:51

I just want to add that in my view, there is a formula for preventing church abuse:

1. Be free of opinions about you from Church members. Get comfy in your own skin.

2. Set boundaries on what they can extract from you.

3. Unless you have personal confirmation, then don't be swayed by arguments that the Lord told a leader you should do X or Y.

4. Keep your critical thinking hat on when you listen to the reasons members and leaders give for why you should have unwavering commitment to the church. Leaders can be wrong. Elder Uchtdorft had a point on that one.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

Joni
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Re: Why the Church abuses

Post by Joni » 18 Jun 2017, 09:51

I haven't read the Ensign article in question, and I don't intend to

It's my understanding that Elder Montoya compares doubt to a fungus. I'm a little curious, is he not familiar with huitlacoche?

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Reuben
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Re: Why the Church abuses

Post by Reuben » 18 Jun 2017, 11:02

Joni wrote:
18 Jun 2017, 09:51
It's my understanding that Elder Montoya compares doubt to a fungus. I'm a little curious, is he not familiar with huitlacoche?
Corn smut! Ha!

Another idea: beneficial fungi grow around and inside of tree roots. Misplaced doubt is can act like Texas root rot to a relationship. On the other hand, well-placed doubt is essential.

Back to the topic: I'm softening on this, mostly because there's on essential difference between an organization and a singular human. In an organization, it's much, much easier to abuse due to ignorance alone. Actions taken at the top appear to apply to aggregates instead of individuals. Feedback that indicates that an action is harmful to some takes a very different form.

I do think the Church systematically abuses members on the margins. I still think a lot of it is due to entitlement and control. I think some of it arises from ignorance. I don't know how much ignorance is wilful. If someone thinks he doesn't need your opinion because he honestly believes that God is telling him what to do - or at least would stop him from doing anything terrible - is that wilful ignorance?

I'm flirting with an analogy on the subject, which I'll probably post on a separate thread.
My intro

Love before dogma. Truth before loyalty. Knowledge before sanctity or certainty.

ydeve
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Re: Why the Church abuses

Post by ydeve » 18 Jun 2017, 11:54

Reuben wrote:
18 Jun 2017, 11:02
I do think the Church systematically abuses members on the margins. I still think a lot of it is due to entitlement and control. I think some of it arises from ignorance. I don't know how much ignorance is wilful. If someone thinks he doesn't need your opinion because he honestly believes that God is telling him what to do - or at least would stop him from doing anything terrible - is that wilful ignorance?
I don't see how whether or not the abuse is willful and intentional actually makes a difference. It's happening regardless, and it will continue to go on regardless. It makes no difference in terms of what you can actually do about the abuse.

Ray DeGraw
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Re: Why the Church abuses

Post by Ray DeGraw » 18 Jun 2017, 12:01

ydeve, that might be true for one individual at the level,of the entire church, but each person can make a difference locally - and many individuals making a difference locally can have a widespread impact on the overall culture, including now but especially on the future generations who will make major cultural changes.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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