What Programs would you Keep? Which would you remove?

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DarkJedi
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Re: What Programs would you Keep? Which would you remove?

Post by DarkJedi » 08 Jun 2017, 14:03

unsure wrote:
08 Jun 2017, 13:16
Ward Council can go in my opinion. Let's bring 10-15 people together for an hour/hour and a half where only 2 or 3 of those people really need to discuss anything which doesn't matter to 90% of the people there. Everything else said have been taken care of in a text or 30 second phone call to the individual(s) who it needs to be relayed to. Most meetings are just ridiculously inefficient which only makes things worse when you are already expected to do so much.
I am aware that there are wards where the case is as you describe Unsure. I hope it is the minority but I don't know if it is or not. My own ward probably fits your description to some extent. BUT, I have been to excellent ward councils where stuff is actually accomplished, administrative input is given, and assignments (delegation) are given. In the case of the ward council I most often attend the bishop is less busy because he can and does rely on other ward leaders to do things that otherwise might fall to him by default, and they in turn rely on their counselors and others to help. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it is how I think it's supposed to work and in that case ward council is invaluable.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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unsure
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Re: What Programs would you Keep? Which would you remove?

Post by unsure » 08 Jun 2017, 22:25

DarkJedi wrote:
08 Jun 2017, 14:03
unsure wrote:
08 Jun 2017, 13:16
Ward Council can go in my opinion. Let's bring 10-15 people together for an hour/hour and a half where only 2 or 3 of those people really need to discuss anything which doesn't matter to 90% of the people there. Everything else said have been taken care of in a text or 30 second phone call to the individual(s) who it needs to be relayed to. Most meetings are just ridiculously inefficient which only makes things worse when you are already expected to do so much.
I am aware that there are wards where the case is as you describe Unsure. I hope it is the minority but I don't know if it is or not. My own ward probably fits your description to some extent. BUT, I have been to excellent ward councils where stuff is actually accomplished, administrative input is given, and assignments (delegation) are given. In the case of the ward council I most often attend the bishop is less busy because he can and does rely on other ward leaders to do things that otherwise might fall to him by default, and they in turn rely on their counselors and others to help. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it is how I think it's supposed to work and in that case ward council is invaluable.
I'm just relaying my experience from having attended ward council but granted my sample size of wards I've attended ward council in is very small. It also wasn't uncommon to sit around for 15 minutes past the scheduled start time because the bishop ran over on whatever meeting he was currently in.

I'm just not a fan of most meetings as they generally aren't that efficient, at least not when the group size gets to be over a few people. I always thought EQ and YM presidency meetings were efficient and helpful. Ward council? Not so much. Again, just my experience and good to know that I'm probably in the minority. Maybe I'm just jaded. :smile:

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Re: What Programs would you Keep? Which would you remove?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 09 Jun 2017, 20:41

Ward Council is the place where women are supposed to have equal say as men in providing counsel and input to the Bishop. It probably is the last administrative meeting I would eliminate. PEC is a totally different issue.

The Primary Program is more for the parents than for the kids, and they can be wonderful meetings or ... not so much. No Bishop is going to risk the tsunami that would hit if he tried to eliminate it.

Most of what I would eliminate if I led a group are the meetings with purposes that can be accomplished through the use of technology and simple coordination.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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DarkJedi
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Re: What Programs would you Keep? Which would you remove?

Post by DarkJedi » 12 Jun 2017, 04:39

Here are mine. These are hypothetical, of course, since it might not be possible to get away with some of it either because members wouldn't like it or higher leadership wouldn't like it. I also recognize there are lots of little behind the scenes things that happen, they'd happen or be delegated at the discretion of the bishop. They are from the point of view of the bishop.

Keep:
1. Ward council. A well organized and well run ward council can administer a ward and relieve the bishop of many mundane duties. This of course requires members of the council to pick up some of those duties. Ward council should be limited to about an hour (hour and a half at most) twice a month. No calendaring or programming.
2. Temporal welfare (in conjunction with ward council). I'm not opposed to the idea of a specialist of some sort who can do food orders and write checks, but I don't see that being removed from the bishop's plate because of tradition and some scriptural basis. Ward council can and should offer input and assistance (for example, RSPs and EQPs can help with food orders).
3. Most of the "judge in Israel" stuff, again because of the scriptural basis. That doesn't mean there needs to be witch hunts, generally let sleeping dogs lie.
4. Limit bishopric to twice a month as well, conducting additional business via phone, email, text, etc.
5. Make mutual twice monthly and mostly joint YM/YW (if parents desire it more often they need to step up to the plate in programming and participation).
6. Make Primary activity days monthly at most (quarterly in smaller units). Again, if parents want more they need to step up (IOW it's not free babysitting and no dropping and running).

Eliminate:
1. Most counseling. Those who need professional counseling should be referred to professional counseling. Those who are "needy" in the way of spiritual counseling should be limited and such counseling can be done by other leaders (including RSP, bishop's counselors, EQPs, HPGLs, HT/VT). I'm particularly thinking of some individuals who are frequent flyers in this case. I'd limit my time availability for counseling to a few hours a week (ideally less than four which might include a weeknight and limited Sunday time). Self reliance includes spiritual self reliance.
2. PEC at the ward level. Needless meeting.
3. BYC. Similar planning/programming meeting to be run by the YMP/YWP jointly (monthly at most).
4. Early morning seminary. Move to online.
5. Ward conference. If necessary, a member of the SP could do annual sustainings as part of a regular SM.
6. PPIs. They are not in the handbooks anyway.
7. All extraneous programs (family history, self reliance, etc.) run by their respective organizations independently.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Roadrunner
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Re: What Programs would you Keep? Which would you remove?

Post by Roadrunner » 12 Jun 2017, 14:23

1. Sunday School
2. Early Morning Seminary
3. Almost all stake activities

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DarkJedi
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Re: What Programs would you Keep? Which would you remove?

Post by DarkJedi » 13 Jun 2017, 03:40

I did consider both SS and stake activities RR. I'm all for a shorter block. In truth I'd keep SS and ditch PH/RS - but there's some scriptural basis for PH (however not necessarily on Sunday). Either way that's beyond a bishop's or SP's prerogative.

Our stake has only one activity besides youth activities (and conference, of course). I usually choose not to attend the activity (a picnic). I see some value in youth activities because in our area it's otherwise tough to get a critical mass of youth. But they don't need to be monthly as they are currently, IMO. Some parents would disagree with me because they think that it's important for youth to associate with each other in a church setting. Also our area tends to have multi-stake activities (for the same critical mass reason) which I could live without. One priest/laurel conference a year is plenty, and I'd ditch the annual rotating dance activity (thus eliminating the travel time to such activities).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Curt Sunshine
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Re: What Programs would you Keep? Which would you remove?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 13 Jun 2017, 12:08

Many meetings are irrelevant for some members and vital for others.

Sunday School is a great example. It is the only meeting for the entire membership that is supposed to be an instructional meeting. We complain sometimes about the lack of instruction that happens in church, but many members don't have any other chance to study with a group of other members. For them, Sunday School can be wonderful, no matter the quality of the actual instructions for many lifelong members.

I think the core issue is not the meeting itself. Rather, it is the fact that too often Sacrament Meeting and PH/RS end up being too instructional (instead of what they are meant to be) and Sunday School too often isn't instructionally stimulating.

If I was a Bishop, I would focus on quality improvement and focus for all meetings. I also would insist that half of the PH/RS meetings each month be replaced by community service, planned largely during the other PH/RS meetings.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Roadrunner
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Re: What Programs would you Keep? Which would you remove?

Post by Roadrunner » 13 Jun 2017, 12:57

My view is that 3 hours of meetings per Sunday plus mutual plus early morning seminary plus leadership meetings will look increasingly unattractive to converts and young people. Something has to give, and even if the quality were consistently good, this kind of time commitment is unsustainable in the 21st century in my opinion.

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DarkJedi
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Re: What Programs would you Keep? Which would you remove?

Post by DarkJedi » 13 Jun 2017, 13:52

Roadrunner wrote:
13 Jun 2017, 12:57
My view is that 3 hours of meetings per Sunday plus mutual plus early morning seminary plus leadership meetings will look increasingly unattractive to converts and young people. Something has to give, and even if the quality were consistently good, this kind of time commitment is unsustainable in the 21st century in my opinion.
Agreed
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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Minyan Man
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Re: What Programs would you Keep? Which would you remove?

Post by Minyan Man » 13 Jun 2017, 14:25

Roadrunner wrote:
13 Jun 2017, 12:57
My view is that 3 hours of meetings per Sunday plus mutual plus early morning seminary plus leadership meetings will look increasingly unattractive to converts and young people. Something has to give, and even if the quality were consistently good, this kind of time commitment is unsustainable in the 21st century in my opinion.
When you are a new convert, you have NO idea what commitments you've made. Back in the old days, we went to church twice on Sunday.
SS, RH, RS in the morning. Sacrament meeting in the afternoon. Sacrament was passed twice on Sunday. The closest ward was 30 min one-way.
It was a full day. When I was Methodist, we went to church on the holidays & considered active. I am OLD.

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