YW Purity??? Not ours but close

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dande48
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Re: YW Purity??? Not ours but close

Post by dande48 » 09 Jun 2017, 07:16

unsure wrote:
08 Jun 2017, 13:03
Dande - I know that was your experience but it sounds as if you're suggesting that women (or people in general) who have sex before marriage will not be faithful in a relationship. I don't agree with that at all.
I was not suggesting that. But dating is one of the few instances where "judging" to an extent is necessary. It's risk assesment, combined with pattern recognition. In relationships, we're always faced with incomplete information. It's impossible to learn everything essential about another person, even if they're an open book. The question is not "Will everyone who's had sex before marriage be unfaithful?" That's a rhetorical, straw-man argument-phrased-as-a-question. The answer is, of course, "no". More likely? I'd say "yes".

The real question is "Given this person's past experience (according to the information I have), what is the probability I could expect certain behaviors in the future? If these behaviors show up in our future relationship, would that relationship still provide the security and emotional connection I require? To what extent? Is this acceptable risk?" As I gained more (albiet limited) experience, my answers changed drastically.

There are also major differences between the WoW and sex. Sex is biologically essential for the survival of the species, and our bodies have been hardwired to recognize that. There are exceptions, but I would readily say that the Law of Chasisty is a more common problem than the WoW.
"Sir, it's quite possible this asteroid is not entirely stable." - C-3PO

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SamBee
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Re: YW Purity??? Not ours but close

Post by SamBee » 09 Jun 2017, 16:03

The point that jumped at me, was the irony in the model of the girls get the heavy talk, the guys get a reminder. Though we don't do it the same. We do lay all the blame on the girl. How she dressed. Which body parts showed. How she flirted, etc.
There is one obvious reason why - pregnancy. Men get the bum deal when it comes to child custody, financial support etc but women get to carry the baby. Even if there is an abortion, pregnancy is a big deal.

This is separate to how she interacts.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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SamBee
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Re: YW Purity??? Not ours but close

Post by SamBee » 09 Jun 2017, 16:08

One disturbing trend I've noticed in modern society is going away from intimacy and emotional connection to meaningless physical intercourse. This is all fine and well if you are young and attractive, but since many people start losing their looks at twenty five or earlier, you are chasing diminishing returns. I also believe this reflects the egotistical trend we see on social media and ends up making people lonely.

Also we have an STD problem of epidemic proportions in the west amongst teenagers that no one is really talking about and condoms do not protect against all of them.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Curt Sunshine
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Re: YW Purity??? Not ours but close

Post by Curt Sunshine » 09 Jun 2017, 20:22

I support the Law of Chastity and modesty completely.

I don't support the way we have taught and still teach both of those principles.

For example, too often, we teach immodesty in the name of modesty. Modesty literally means moderation - acting between two competing extremes - and acting appropriately for the situation at the time. A modest income means one that is neither small nor large; a modest house means the same thing; modest language actually means not speaking too much or too little, and not overly-flowery or overly-course in the words used. Modesty means wearing a swimsuit to the beach or lake or pool, and not wearing a swimsuit to a professional office or to church. Modesty means having strong beliefs but being open to new ideas and beliefs. Modesty is proper balance.

Modesty is NOT a dress that covers the entire body and shows no flesh. That is immodesty. Modesty, literally defined precisely, would mean covering roughly half of one's body in clothing. There is no clearly defined way to do that, but, given our focus on chests and crotches, something that covers those and not much else would be modest, strictly defined.

We go about discussing and teaching about sex with this same warped, immodest approach. Complete abstinence from ALL things even remotely sexual is immodest. In fact, it is extremely immodest.

I could go on and on, but that would be immodest. :P
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

amateurparent
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Re: YW Purity??? Not ours but close

Post by amateurparent » 09 Jun 2017, 23:26

Thank you for sharing the original video. I agree with everything she stated.

Below is a link to a NPR talk on girls and pleasure that I found insightful. I do wish society and the church broadened discussions into areas other than "Women as Sexual Gatekeepers".

http://www.npr.org/2017/04/21/522862053 ... t-pleasure
I have no advance degrees in parenting. No national credentials. I am an amateur parent. I read, study, and learn all I can to be the best parent possible. Every time I think I have reached expert status with one child for one stage in their life, something changes and I am back to amateur status again. Now when I really mess up, I just apologize to my child, and explain that I am indeed an amateur .. I'm still learning how to do this right.

Roy
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Re: YW Purity??? Not ours but close

Post by Roy » 11 Jun 2017, 13:16

LookingHard wrote:
08 Jun 2017, 20:59
Interesting read going to a different extreme
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why ... mg00000313
I'm not so sure that it is an extreme per se. she says in the article that she talks to her children about whether or not they will be able to do the activity in the clothing they are wearing also to be aware that some people may notice and comment on your clothing and how you might feel and respond to that.

In principle, I feel that dress standards should be about respecting yourself and respecting others. How these sometimes competing directives balance can be tricky but as long as we are trying it should work out alright.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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dande48
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Re: YW Purity??? Not ours but close

Post by dande48 » 11 Jun 2017, 14:05

Roy wrote:
11 Jun 2017, 13:16
In principle, I feel that dress standards should be about respecting yourself and respecting others. How these sometimes competing directives balance can be tricky but as long as we are trying it should work out alright.
I wish that the principle of "respect" was more emphasized in the Church. I think too often there are people who act in a certain way, not because it is "who they are", but to shock, and get a reaction, so they can put on the "victim panties" and take offense at everyone who was offended. But I think there is really a virtue in showing courtesy towards others. It's important to not "take offense" because of what other people do, but we can't hold others to the same standards. People take offense; sometimes they'll go out of their way to take offense. But we should still do our best to help them feel comfortable and at peace.
"Sir, it's quite possible this asteroid is not entirely stable." - C-3PO

Curt Sunshine
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Re: YW Purity??? Not ours but close

Post by Curt Sunshine » 11 Jun 2017, 14:40

[Admin Note]: "Victim panties" is a sexist term. I am leaving it in place simply to point out how subtle and pervasive sexism is in our fallen world. Let's all try to be aware of these things and weed them from our vocabulary.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Roy
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Re: YW Purity??? Not ours but close

Post by Roy » 11 Jun 2017, 15:09

Two thoughts:

1) I believe that there is a portion of dressing modesty that is just about fitting in. IOW - DW feels that she must shave her legs to go swimming and must wear a skirt to go to church. These are not exactly rules and have NOTHING to do with modesty but everything to do with fitting in. I believe that part of dressing according to "modest" cultural standards is partly just about fitting in.
dande48 wrote:
11 Jun 2017, 14:05
I wish that the principle of "respect" was more emphasized in the Church. I think too often there are people who act in a certain way, not because it is "who they are", but to shock, and get a reaction,
2) I understand that. The people that wear garments on the outside of their clothing at GC are certainly doing so to shock and get a reaction. However if we live to respect ourselves and respect others then we can let that be our guide in how we respond to them. Similar to treating others as we want to be treated even if they do not do the same for us.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Katzpur
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Re: YW Purity??? Not ours but close

Post by Katzpur » 11 Jun 2017, 16:36

Reuben wrote:
08 Jun 2017, 10:22
Never, ever, ever talking about the seriousness without emphasizing the power of repentance would be a good start.
Amen. My daughter might still be active in the Church had someone along the way bothered to do this. I don't think that emphasizing the power of repentance in any way encourages people to think, "It doesn't matter what I do as long as I repent afterwards." But when the focus is on the negative effects of sin and the Atonement is barely alluded to, it can destroy lives.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." ~Rudyard Kipling ~

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