Cool and Contrarian Experience in Sunday Class today

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Heber13
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Re: Cool and Contrarian Experience in Sunday Class today

Post by Heber13 » 05 Jun 2017, 11:48

I think a lot of it is how you frame the comments to add to the class, but that those additions and perspectives can be good. Especially if you have interesting points, not just being contrarian in viewpoints. It sounds like you did that, SD. And it was well received. I think that can help build social capital in the ward.

I have found that same type of reception in my ward also, depending how I pick my moments or frame my comments.

Thanks for sharing.
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Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
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dande48
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Re: Cool and Contrarian Experience in Sunday Class today

Post by dande48 » 05 Jun 2017, 12:10

SamBee wrote:
05 Jun 2017, 08:38
I think one that has come up time and again is the thou/thee/thy/thine thing. People have it the wrong way round - they think it represents respect and authority.

"No," I have to remind them. "You wouldn't say 'thou' to your boss at work or your king, you would say it to close family and close friends."

This bewilders a lot of them so I often point out most European languages including Spanish, French, German and Russian all use a word related to "thou" for familiarity to this day. Not for respect to a higher up.
While you're correct in that the terms "thee","thou","thy", and "thine", were used in old English to convey familiarity, you'd get a funny look calling anyone "thou". In modern English, no one uses thou/thee/thy/thine anymore EXCEPT in formal religious context. Addressing God as "you" would be considered disrespectful, despite the fact that it was originally formal. However, referring to God as "y'all", which was originally a condensation of the term "ye all", would also be considered disrespectful.

It's a case of etymological evolution, where words change in meaning over time. I get your point, but if you start saying the Church is "awful", that Trump's policies are "fantastic", telling your bishop that you are "gay", and declaring that only "husbands" can own property... you're going to leave people feeling pretty confused (if not outraged).
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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Cool and Contrarian Experience in Sunday Class today

Post by hawkgrrrl » 05 Jun 2017, 12:46

I used to feel as you do about the "thees" and "thous," but I actually think it's a little worse. It's a "form of godliness," kind of like how the BOM is written to sound like scripture - it was archaic at the time it was written. It's like as soon as we say something negative that is supposed to set the church apart as better, we end up doing the exact same thing (e.g. having a "form of godliness"):
-We say creeds are an abomination, and we come up with 13 articles of faith, the Proclamation, and so forth.
-We talk about scripture being correct insofar as it is translated correctly, and then use poor Biblical scholarship to make all sorts of proof-texts and misunderstandings, taking things literally that we shouldn't, harmonizing the gospels while ignoring their differences, etc.
-We talk about turning the hearts of the children to the fathers, and then ignore what young people think and need, only listening to an increasingly older gerontocracy.
-We decry vain repetitions and then thank God for "moisture" when we live in a tropical rainforest where it LITERALLY RAINS EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Well, anyway, I've gone far afield, but you see my point. Projection is alive and well.

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Reuben
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Re: Cool and Contrarian Experience in Sunday Class today

Post by Reuben » 05 Jun 2017, 13:44

hawkgrrrl wrote:
05 Jun 2017, 12:46
-We decry vain repetitions and then thank God for "moisture" when we live in a tropical rainforest where it LITERALLY RAINS EVERY SINGLE DAY.
:lol:

I would love to know the history of the word "moisture" in Mormon prayers.
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DarkJedi
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Re: Cool and Contrarian Experience in Sunday Class today

Post by DarkJedi » 05 Jun 2017, 14:21

I do think framing our comments in "Mormon speak" (sheepese) and in a non-confrontational way is key. I express other points of view frequently, but don't consider it "contrarian."

We have a young guy in our ward, not a true believer but a nice guy and a believer in Christ. He does like to stir the pot but does so in a more confrontational way. Doing so just gets people's hackles up and he ends up getting shot down most of the time. He is an elder, maybe a priest, so I'm not generally in class with him but have seen him in action and my sons have talked about some of his comments. If phrased right he might get some of his ideas across.
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SamBee
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Re: Cool and Contrarian Experience in Sunday Class today

Post by SamBee » 05 Jun 2017, 17:06

dande48 wrote:
05 Jun 2017, 12:10
In modern English, no one uses thou/thee/thy/thine anymore EXCEPT in formal religious context. Addressing God as "you" would be considered disrespectful, despite the fact that it was originally formal. However, referring to God as "y'all", which was originally a condensation of the term "ye all", would also be considered disrespectful.

It's a case of etymological evolution, where words change in meaning over time. I get your point, but if you start saying the Church is "awful", that Trump's policies are "fantastic", telling your bishop that you are "gay", and declaring that only "husbands" can own property... you're going to leave people feeling pretty confused (if not outraged).
Regarding the second paragraph, I think within the KJV, thou is clearly used in the familiar sense and we must go with the intent of the translators. It is a very important and significant matter in a theological sense - ironically it plays to LDS doctrine when understood properly.

Secondly, it is not true to say it is extinct in modern English. It is actually still used in several dialects - notably Manchester, the city in England which recently had a terrorist attack, usually in the form "thee". Manchester is one of the biggest cities in England after London.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
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SamBee
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Re: Cool and Contrarian Experience in Sunday Class today

Post by SamBee » 05 Jun 2017, 17:13

SilentDawning wrote:
05 Jun 2017, 09:33
I don't really have a problem with Thee, thine, and thought, but if I wanted to change it, I would start by saying prayers that start and end with the various thees and thous. But in the middle I would use you, and yours etcetera. I think there has to be a strong rationale for it though -- you have to have a really strong set of reasons for wanting to change the cultural norms that typify Mormonism. Not all are bad; some are good.
I don't tend to use it in prayers personally, because it is not my natural speech. And I prefer to pray in that. I am a fan of the KJV for reasons I have stated elsewhere. It is far from perfect but I think in literary and stylistic terms it nails it sometimes in a way that some modern translations do not.

However, on a pedant point, if we are going to use thou, it should really have the properly conjugated forms with it - thou hast, thou sittest, thou shalt etc...
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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