Baby Steps for Women's Status

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hawkgrrrl
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Baby Steps for Women's Status

Post by hawkgrrrl » 30 May 2017, 12:11

https://wheatandtares.org/2017/05/30/im ... he-church/

I try to do these mile-marker posts every once in a while to mark progress for women, but it had been longer than I realized. There have been improvements, some bigger than others. The ones I personally think are the biggest:
- Lowering the age for women serving missions. This will have downstream impacts that will result in women being taken more seriously.
- Not firing women from CES teaching roles when they have children. I know it sounds crazy obvious, but when I moved to Singapore in 2011, the headline in the first Straits Times newspaper I read was that Singapore Air had just instituted a new rule that they would no longer fire flight attendants who became pregnant. They are still much more like the 1960s where flight attendants are domesticated eye candy.
- Televising the PH session of GC and calling the Women's Conf one of the sessions of GC. These aren't perfect, of course, but making the PH session available to all via television was a big move that got lost in the temple square Ordain Women marches. It was still a fairly important move at making something that was just a secretive thing for men into something I OFTEN hear women referencing. Clearly it's being consumed equally by both sexes. Priesthood session: it's not just anti-porn talks anymore.

What changes do you believe have been most significant?
What changes do you most hope for?

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nibbler
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Re: Baby Steps for Women's Status

Post by nibbler » 30 May 2017, 12:52

I think the largest was lowering the mission age. That was a game changer.

There's also women praying during GC. I don't know when that practice started. I lose track of time.

If women being ordained is too much for you how about doing away with PECs and moving to ward councils where the makeup of the council is close to 50/50 men/women. From what I hear we're headed that direction.
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“No man, for any considerable period, can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be the true.”
― Nathaniel Hawthorne

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LookingHard
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Re: Baby Steps for Women's Status

Post by LookingHard » 30 May 2017, 13:15

hawkgrrrl wrote:
30 May 2017, 12:11
...
- Televising the PH session of GC and calling the Women's Conf one of the sessions of GC. These aren't perfect, of course, but making the PH session available to all via television was a big move that got lost in the temple square Ordain Women marches. It was still a fairly important move at making something that was just a secretive thing for men into something I OFTEN hear women referencing. Clearly it's being consumed equally by both sexes. Priesthood session: it's not just anti-porn talks anymore.
But before this wasn't the Priesthood (and for that matter - the Women's meeting) available just a few weeks later (both print and video)?

I like it because I don't have to drive 45 minutes to the stake center for Gen Con PH session. I could just watch it at home.

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Baby Steps for Women's Status

Post by hawkgrrrl » 30 May 2017, 13:31

There's also women praying during GC.
Yes, that was mentioned in the post, although since women already pray in local sac mtgs, I didn't think this was as significant a step. That's just my own opinion.
But before this wasn't the Priesthood (and for that matter - the Women's meeting) available just a few weeks later (both print and video)?
Yes, 5 days later, actually. . .BUT I stand by my statement for 2 reasons: 1) the number of women who are quoting it/listening to it/considering it for them is MUCH higher based on what I'm hearing at church, and 2) I could be off, but I think the topics are more general now than they used to be, possibly in acknowledgement that the meeting is now more mainstream.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Baby Steps for Women's Status

Post by DarkJedi » 30 May 2017, 13:36

I also think the age change is the most significant and still don't know why they just didn't make it 18 for both. I agree it will have a long range effect, including respect. It has already begun to affect marriage age - there are now far more YW (from my observation) who are "planning to serve a mission" instead of the mission being a back up plan if you don't happen to be married by 21. My sons at BYU tell me there has been an attitude change there as well, where the men are looking for returned missionaries to marry - a turning of the tables of sorts.

That said, I do enjoy sitting at home on my couch in my jammies to watch priesthood session.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Re: Baby Steps for Women's Status

Post by DarkJedi » 30 May 2017, 13:39

hawkgrrrl wrote:
30 May 2017, 13:31
But before this wasn't the Priesthood (and for that matter - the Women's meeting) available just a few weeks later (both print and video)?
Yes, 5 days later, actually. . .BUT I stand by my statement for 2 reasons: 1) the number of women who are quoting it/listening to it/considering it for them is MUCH higher based on what I'm hearing at church, and 2) I could be off, but I think the topics are more general now than they used to be, possibly in acknowledgement that the meeting is now more mainstream.
I agree. Again, this is anecdotal, but my wife listens live now and probably pays more attention to priesthood session than before. Somehow it used to be some secret stuff we discussed, even though it was printed later. And I also agree the priesthood topics are more general than they used to be - I've noticed less of the "I'm going to address the Aaroinic Priesthood brethren...."
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Re: Baby Steps for Women's Status

Post by nibbler » 30 May 2017, 13:40

hawkgrrrl wrote:
30 May 2017, 13:31
Yes, that was mentioned in the post, although since women already pray in local sac mtgs, I didn't think this was as significant a step. That's just my own opinion.
Women praying during SM is probably commonplace but I see some value in things like that happening on a more global stage. For instance, in our ward we have a woman give the closing talk at least 50% of the time, possibly more. I've heard experiences where apparently women giving closing remarks doesn't happen in every ward.

So first baby step? A woman gives the closing talk during the General Women's Session of conference.

I haven't done any research... has a woman ever given a concluding talk during a session of GC?
“We understand how dangerous a mask can be. We all become what we pretend to be.”
― Patrick Rothfuss


“No man, for any considerable period, can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be the true.”
― Nathaniel Hawthorne

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On Own Now
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Re: Baby Steps for Women's Status

Post by On Own Now » 30 May 2017, 13:57

As you've indicated, and as referenced in the blog, there are small, but visible improvements to the official posture of the Church. I think just as significant, is that the culture is making big strides. This is more subjective and subject to anecdotal evidence, but I think there is much more street-cred held by women than in times past, open acceptance of single/divorced women, acknowledgement that 1950's-style-families are less and less the norm, and that women with jobs are mainstream. Young women are getting more educated and with fully useful degrees. In my limited experience, my perception is that RS Presidents at the local level are more powerful women than what I used to see as motherly-women-extraordinaire in the past, but as I say, that's just my perception.

The Church and its people are not perfect in this area, of course, but at least there is movement in the right direction, something that hasn't always or even usually been true.
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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Re: Baby Steps for Women's Status

Post by DarkJedi » 30 May 2017, 14:18

nibbler wrote:
30 May 2017, 13:40
hawkgrrrl wrote:
30 May 2017, 13:31
Yes, that was mentioned in the post, although since women already pray in local sac mtgs, I didn't think this was as significant a step. That's just my own opinion.
Women praying during SM is probably commonplace but I see some value in things like that happening on a more global stage. For instance, in our ward we have a woman give the closing talk at least 50% of the time, possibly more. I've heard experiences where apparently women giving closing remarks doesn't happen in every ward.

So first baby step? A woman gives the closing talk during the General Women's Session of conference.

I haven't done any research... has a woman ever given a concluding talk during a session of GC?
My observation in my own area is that by and large women almost never give the concluding talk in SM. This was different under our old bishop when it was more like your referenced about half the time. There has been a noticeable difference with the "new" bishop. It never happens in the other ward I visit often except when it's a returning missionary talk - and even then not always (which also recently happened in my own ward).

I agree that women giving a concluding talk in a GC session would be another step in the right direction. I honestly don't see why we need a member of the first presidency to conclude women's session, but it seems to always be the case. While not all general sessions are concluded by a member of the FP, if it's not one of them it's usually an apostle. I don't see why that's necessary either, nor do I see the necessity of a member of the FP to speak in most sessions (usually all sessions) - they're not that special. (On the other hand, if such was not the case we'd hear less from Uchtdorf.)
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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SilentDawning
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Re: Baby Steps for Women's Status

Post by SilentDawning » 30 May 2017, 15:35

I think elevating the Ward council over PEC was a step in the right direction. I understand WC meets more frequently than PEC, which gives women leaders more of a voice than they had in the past.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

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