Verschlimmbesserung

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SamBee
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Re: Verschlimmbesserung

Post by SamBee » 26 May 2017, 09:37

Not a U-turn on the entire thing but certainly a hasty retraction on some of it.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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SilentDawning
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Re: Verschlimmbesserung

Post by SilentDawning » 26 May 2017, 10:26

SamBee wrote:
26 May 2017, 05:45
SilentDawning wrote:
25 May 2017, 09:29
SamBee wrote:
25 May 2017, 05:48
November Policy definitely counts as it did not have the desired effect, unintended consequences and they had to do a U-turn. And I say that from the POV of its supporters
(I'm not one.)
Did they do a u-turn? I have heard of no such u-turns. Usually church-related u-turns are like trying to turn a massive ocean liner. Happens really slow!!
Yes, they did. They had to issue a second statement to try and undo some of the unintended consequences, namely how the policy affected active children and heterosexual children of LGBT.
I missed that one. If anyone has a thread on it or a press release I'd be interested in reading about it.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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nibbler
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Re: Verschlimmbesserung

Post by nibbler » 26 May 2017, 10:47

Extremely high level:

The changes to the handbook are made November 5, 2015. http://www.sltrib.com/home/3144035-155/ ... -apostates

Elder Christofferson appears in a PR video on November 6, 2015. http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/h ... stofferson

The First Presidency issues a clarification to the policy on November 13, 2015. https://www.lds.org/pages/church-handbo ... s?lang=eng
Let me out, what you see is not the same person as me, my life's a lie, I'm not who you're looking at, let me out, set me free, I'm really old, this isn't me, my real body's slowing dying in a vat.
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SamBee
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Re: Verschlimmbesserung

Post by SamBee » 26 May 2017, 11:26

Yes exactly "clarification"!
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Reuben
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Re: Verschlimmbesserung

Post by Reuben » 27 May 2017, 04:07

dande48 wrote:
26 May 2017, 08:13
  • The primary reason why [blessing a child] is done is to turn them into a "child of record". In other words, for all intents and purposes, they are a member without making the consious decision to be so. That means missionary visits, home teachers, and certain callings even IF the child decides they have nothing to do with the Church.
  • Contradictory messages on proper living from two different sources of ultimate authority, Parents and God (through the Church), can be very confusing and even harmful to the child.
I hadn't thought that not allowing children to be children of record is part of the reason. Interesting. It sounds to me like more fully cutting the family off from the Church, and because it goes both ways, more fully cutting the Church off from the family.

Children get contradictory messages from competing authorities all the time. The most generous interpretation I can give is that the Church doesn't want to compete with parents. That happens all the time, too, but I think the Church usually wins via its culture of members shutting up about points of disagreement. But when the Church is calling your parents' marriage "Satan's counterfeit," no amount of shutting up on your parents' part will hide the fact that it's obviously not. Just living it is a loud and clear contradictory message.

Children raised like that will trust their parents' teachings more than the Church's on that one point, and probably many more besides. And they'll look, talk, and act like Mormons in every other way.

At the Q15 level, the culture of shutting up about disagreements looks like agreement, and agreement on all aspects of morality is seen as good. So I have no reason to think the explanation Elder Christofferson gave misrepresents the Q15's thinking. I do think he left something out, though: I think most of the Q15 think that children being raised to think SSM is good is one of Satan's insidious inroad into the Church, a canker that has to be stopped at all costs for the sake of eternal families.
My intro

Love before dogma. Truth before loyalty. Knowledge before certainty.

ydeve
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Re: Verschlimmbesserung

Post by ydeve » 27 May 2017, 08:04

Reuben wrote:
27 May 2017, 04:07
I think most of the Q15 think that children being raised to think SSM is good is one of Satan's insidious inroad into the Church, a canker that has to be stopped at all costs for the sake of eternal families.
In the long term, it's a hopeless fight. Most young people have out LGBT friends or family. The church's teachings on eternal families is working against them on this one. The gay bashing makes people confront the inconsistency between the homophobia and the family values the church tries to promote.

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SilentDawning
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Re: Verschlimmbesserung

Post by SilentDawning » 27 May 2017, 19:07

dande48 wrote:
26 May 2017, 08:13

Honestly, if I was LGBT, I would've been almosy psyched about the November policy. I could have the child blessed in the comfort of my own home, and given a name and a blessing WITHOUT forcing the child into the Church. Right now, being a married-heterosexual with a child on the way, my extended family doesn't understand why I am so opposed to blessing the child in Church, thereby creating a membership record for my child.
I agree. If the church doesn't allow me to ordain my son to higher priesthood offices, then what is stopping me from having someone in the Ward do it, and then give a father's blessing in the home? I can give whatever advice I want.

What is stopping me from renewing my wedding vows in my home with my wife and children present, rather than doing sealings? It will be more personal to say what I want to say, and to have the spirit present as we share our commitment to each other. Women can give prayers of faith, and even lay a hand on someone and give a blessing without actually invoking the priesthood....someone here suggested that once. There is one of the church videos where a woman does that and makes an Ox get up and walk during a pioneer trek.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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dande48
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Re: Verschlimmbesserung

Post by dande48 » 27 May 2017, 20:57

SilentDawning wrote:
27 May 2017, 19:07
There is one of the church videos where a woman does that and makes an Ox get up and walk during a pioneer trek.
I remember crying at that scene when I was a kid.

THE OX WAS DYING, AND DIDNT WANT TO GO, BUT THEN SHE PRAYED AND BLESSED IT AND LOVED THE OX... AND OH MY GOSH IT WAS A MIRACLE!!!
"Sir, it's quite possible this asteroid is not entirely stable." - C-3PO

Joni
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Re: Verschlimmbesserung

Post by Joni » 28 May 2017, 06:58

I think the English equivalent for this word is "New Coke." :lol:

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SamBee
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Re: Verschlimmbesserung

Post by SamBee » 28 May 2017, 07:18

Joni wrote:
28 May 2017, 06:58
I think the English equivalent for this word is "New Coke." :lol:
Yes - that kind of idea. If anything is "new (&) improved", I know it means that it has been changed, not necessarily bettered.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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