Energy drinks

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DarkJedi
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Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Energy drinks

Post by DarkJedi » 26 Nov 2016, 07:27

I realize I get on the soapbox with this kind of stuff and I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. I just think that some members too often try to make everything a commandment as the basis for doing or not doing something. In reality I believe there are few commandments and we're mostly allowed to act for ourselves without having to fear condemnation at the last day. Addictive drugs like heroin are bad for you. I have figured that out for myself, I don't need to to be commanded not to do heroin or to teach my children it's bad for you. I'm fine with there being church policies on addictive drugs, partly because I'm not sure we should go around baptizing addicts (that I'd probably get assigned to home teach). Policies and commandments are not the same. So, just because something is not in the WoW doesn't mean it might not be bad for us but it doesn't need to be in there for us to figure that out and we don't need to say it is because the WoW is actually pretty specific.

All that said, while I don't advocate for change in the WoW I do wish the Q15 had the gumption to do it.

Oh, and hot drinks - there was a common belief at the time that very hot stuff was bad for people to eat which at least partly accounts for that line. I even remember my uneducated grandfather talking about it. Modern research actually confirms the idea that very hot stuff is bad. My personal belief about tea and coffee specifically is that Brigham Young was concerned about the cost of importing tea and coffee to Zion, especially in light of the increasing British population.

One other side note. One of my missionary son's many many mission specific rules is no caffeinated soft drinks.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Reuben
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Re: Energy drinks

Post by Reuben » 26 Nov 2016, 09:36

LookingHard wrote:It seems to me it was a bit progressive in its time, but not exclusive. But it seems we are kinds of stuck now on something from over 100 years ago and does not focus on the major health issue in the US - obesity. If we were really super health focused there would be talked about at least a bit.
It's mostly not about health anymore, but about having an outward sign of an inward covenant. At least, that's what the letter of the law functions as, as it's currently interpreted and emphasized. An update would elevate every new prescription or proscription to "sign" status, giving the members many new and exciting ways to beat up on themselves and judge others, often simultaneously. Worse, imagine the number of members denied recommends for "being too fat." No policy change would keep that from happening, short of removing the WoW question from the TR interview.

I'm in favor of an update that clearly separates signs from suggestions. Oh, and changes to the wording so it doesn't sound like it's okay to feed barley to chickens. :D

And someone should do something about that "mild drinks" business.
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Vincent53
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Re: Energy drinks

Post by Vincent53 » 27 Nov 2016, 03:18

My mission president specifically had Coke and Pepsi available with our lunches at Zone conferences to make the point that they weren't forbidden in the WoW. He didn't want us teaching it especially. That was back in the early 80's before energy drinks were even thought of.

I've heard that Yerba Mate, a popular hot drink in South American containing caffeine, isn't off limits for members of the church. I know a few RM's who continue to drink it when they get home.

I decided a long time ago that anything in excess wasn't good for me. Soft drinks have always made me feel bloated, so I avoid them. I'll have an occasional Coke to help keep me awake on long drives. Chocolate is my vice, especially dark chocolate!


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Roy
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Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Energy drinks

Post by Roy » 27 Nov 2016, 11:11

DarkJedi wrote:I realize I get on the soapbox with this kind of stuff and I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. I just think that some members too often try to make everything a commandment as the basis for doing or not doing something. In reality I believe there are few commandments and we're mostly allowed to act for ourselves without having to fear condemnation at the last day. Addictive drugs like heroin are bad for you. I have figured that out for myself, I don't need to to be commanded not to do heroin or to teach my children it's bad for you. I'm fine with there being church policies on addictive drugs, partly because I'm not sure we should go around baptizing addicts (that I'd probably get assigned to home teach). Policies and commandments are not the same. So, just because something is not in the WoW doesn't mean it might not be bad for us but it doesn't need to be in there for us to figure that out and we don't need to say it is because the WoW is actually pretty specific.
I agree with this. I had a good friend in middle school that was experimenting with smoking joints of household herbs like basil and oregano. He seemed surprised when I told him that smoke was bad for him even if it didn't have any tobacco. There seems to be an idea that as long as we are obeying commandments - then we are fine and do not need to apply much personal judgment or situational ethics.
DarkJedi wrote:One other side note. One of my missionary son's many many mission specific rules is no caffeinated soft drinks.
In my mission Caffeinated soft drinks were against one of the unwritten (but taught and peer enforced) rules. Then we got a new mission president and that rule went away. The new president acted as though that rule never even really existed. The story goes that one of the AP's asked for clarification on how to handle a missionary that was secretly drinking Coke and the MP responded to do nothing as no such rule exists. This spread throughout the mission and there were no problems. Nobody ran out and drank themselves into a caffeine induced coma. The rules Nazis just shifted their stance a bit (let this one thing go) and went on harping on all the other stuff detailed in the white handbook.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

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"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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DarkJedi
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Re: Energy drinks

Post by DarkJedi » 27 Nov 2016, 15:06

Roy wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:I realize I get on the soapbox with this kind of stuff and I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. I just think that some members too often try to make everything a commandment as the basis for doing or not doing something. In reality I believe there are few commandments and we're mostly allowed to act for ourselves without having to fear condemnation at the last day. Addictive drugs like heroin are bad for you. I have figured that out for myself, I don't need to to be commanded not to do heroin or to teach my children it's bad for you. I'm fine with there being church policies on addictive drugs, partly because I'm not sure we should go around baptizing addicts (that I'd probably get assigned to home teach). Policies and commandments are not the same. So, just because something is not in the WoW doesn't mean it might not be bad for us but it doesn't need to be in there for us to figure that out and we don't need to say it is because the WoW is actually pretty specific.
I agree with this. I had a good friend in middle school that was experimenting with smoking joints of household herbs like basil and oregano. He seemed surprised when I told him that smoke was bad for him even if it didn't have any tobacco. There seems to be an idea that as long as we are obeying commandments - then we are fine and do not need to apply much personal judgment or situational ethics.
DarkJedi wrote:One other side note. One of my missionary son's many many mission specific rules is no caffeinated soft drinks.
In my mission Caffeinated soft drinks were against one of the unwritten (but taught and peer enforced) rules. Then we got a new mission president and that rule went away. The new president acted as though that rule never even really existed. The story goes that one of the AP's asked for clarification on how to handle a missionary that was secretly drinking Coke and the MP responded to do nothing as no such rule exists. This spread throughout the mission and there were no problems. Nobody ran out and drank themselves into a caffeine induced coma. The rules Nazis just shifted their stance a bit (let this one thing go) and went on harping on all the other stuff detailed in the white handbook.
In my other son's mission there was also not a rule, and the MP openly drank Diet Coke and had it at leadership council meetings. In some parts of that mission drinking water was ill advised and the other choices were soda (which almost always meant Coke) or fruit juices which members did not normally readily have on hand (partly because of cost). They also drank mate, as did the MP. My son did bring some mate home and does drink it.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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Always Thinking
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Joined: 29 Dec 2015, 11:46

Re: Energy drinks

Post by Always Thinking » 27 Nov 2016, 15:54

I was surprised recently when I read the word of wisdom for the first time that it says that 'strong drinks are for the washing of your bodies' (what?) and that 'Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.'

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LookingHard
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Joined: 20 Oct 2014, 12:11

Re: Energy drinks

Post by LookingHard » 27 Nov 2016, 17:14

Always Thinking wrote:I was surprised recently when I read the word of wisdom for the first time that it says that 'strong drinks are for the washing of your bodies' (what?) and that 'Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.'
Yep. It gets rather odd when you dig in a bit. From my understanding that until the US temperance movement kicked in and the church aligned itself with that, beer and wine were not an issue. Joseph Smith had some wine with his last meal. Brigham Young even owned some (all?) alcohol distribution in Utah. The real "bad" drinks were the ones where they distilled them to have a higher alcohol content. Even though I have no desire to drink it is very interesting how this has morphed over time, but fat chance of any big changes now. It is too much of a cultural marker.

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SamBee
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Re: Energy drinks

Post by SamBee » 09 Dec 2016, 18:09

LookingHard wrote:
nibbler wrote:...
Here's the church policy:
Handbook 2: Administering the Church wrote: 21.3.11 Word of Wisdom
The only official interpretation of “hot drinks” (D&C 89:9) in the Word of Wisdom is the statement made by early Church leaders that the term “hot drinks” means tea and coffee.

Members should not use any substance that contains illegal drugs. Nor should members use harmful or habit-forming substances except under the care of a competent physician.
Emphasis added. So... no Coke then? ;) I kid but that's usually what people cite when they explain why they don't drink soft drinks.
And now that gets into "addictive" vs "habit-forming."

Some people will put carbs into "habit-forming" (just talk to someone that has gone on the Atkins diet).

It all seems to be a bit of a tricky slope and for many a slippery slope. I look at a lot of it as "outward appearances" and as Nibbler mentioned - showing that we are more righteous.
The difference with carbs and fat is we actually need *some* for survival.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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SamBee
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Re: Energy drinks

Post by SamBee » 09 Dec 2016, 18:10

LookingHard wrote:It seems to me it was a bit progressive in its time, but not exclusive. But it seems we are kinds of stuck now on something from over 100 years ago and does not focus on the major health issue in the US - obesity. If we were really super health focused there would be talked about at least a bit.
Funnily enough, we find that it recommends eating ceteals (fiber) and cutting meat consumption.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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