Can I complain about garments?

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Roy
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by Roy » 11 May 2015, 15:00

I had not considered that Ann. Thanks for giving me something to ponder.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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mom3
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by mom3 » 11 May 2015, 16:17

Women should be able to feel feminine single or married, at 21, 91, and every age between.
My 26 year old, unmarried, devoutly LDS daughter is having that very wrestle now. She prayed and fasted and felt a mission wasn't for her. Now that being single seems more likely she would like to go to the temple, but she has struggled with body image for years - and garments really rattle her. She has given herself a year or so to just let the idea chill. As a mom I wish the church would make a David O. McKay statement, and evict the letter of the law that happens even before the recommend interview. We don't wear any of the other symbolic clothes outside - we keep them sacred. Let's do the same with the garment.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 11 May 2015, 17:41

That is exactly my desire, mom3.

I don't hold out belief it will happen, but I do take the handbook instruction seriously to allow members to make their own decisions about how to wear and use it.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

NightSG
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by NightSG » 12 May 2015, 09:28

Ann wrote:The focus is on how women can feel "sexy" wearing something so very sexless, when and how to justify not wearing it, etc.
You're putting feelz before realz here. A quick trip to People of WalMart will show you tons (literally) of women who feel sexy because they're not wearing near enough.

Two of the sexiest women I've ever met, I've only seen without their garments when swimming. (Or when I showed up early to pick one up, but the bathrobe she answered the door in covered more than a trenchcoat.)

Ann
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by Ann » 12 May 2015, 09:48

I was going to shoot back a response, but I may not be understanding you. What exactly do you mean by feelz before realz? If you're saying that women without the restrictions that garments put on their wardrobes can end up looking awful, I can't disagree with you. (You can accomplish the same feat even with garments if you're determined.) But if you're saying that how a woman feels in her garments is less important than how the onlooking man perceives her, I completely disagree.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 May 2015, 10:02

Ann beat me to it.

NightSG, would you mind clarifying what you mean?

I think NOBODY here thinks that women who wear garments can't feel or be "sexy" (or appealing or beautiful or feminine or self-confident or anything else) or that all women who wear the garment are un-sexy or unappealing or ugly or masculine or anything else - and nobody has said or implied that, as far as I know. However, there are lots of women who flat-out don't feel sexy (or appealing or beautiful or feminine or self-confident or anything else) when they are wearing the garment - and some of them have body perception issues (caused to varying degrees by social expectations inside and outside the Church) that are exacerbated seriously by wearing the garment.

Pardon the pun, but this is not a one-size-fits-all issue - and dismissing or diminishing real pain is not somewhere we want to go here.

Again, would you mind clarifying?
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Joni
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by Joni » 12 May 2015, 11:01

The issue of whether or not a woman is 'sexy' in garments misses the point entirely. Because then it becomes all about the Male Gaze and how a woman's underwear choices affect the men around her. Even the problem of intimacy - and it is a problem - is secondary, at least in my mind, to the real problem. The real problem is that LDS women have so many aspects of their spiritual, personal, and sexual lives controlled by a group of elderly men they've never met. Being able to wear underwear that you like and you chose is a very intimate, very empowering experience for many women. And I am denied that choice by virtue of being, apparently, one of God's chosen.

GBSmith
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by GBSmith » 12 May 2015, 12:25

Ann wrote:It seems that garment discussions often veer off pretty quickly into sex and intimacy within marriage territory. The focus is on how women can feel "sexy" wearing something so very sexless, when and how to justify not wearing it, etc. But how I feel about garments really has nothing to do with my husband and our sex life. Women should be able to feel feminine single or married, at 21, 91, and every age between.
The operative word is "should". There are myriad things today besides garments that affect women's self and body image and ability to feel feminine i.e. advertising, media, "friends", Cosmo and Self, the Ensign, etc.. When how to overcome those is figured out, it needs to be added to the Young Women in Excellence program.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 May 2015, 13:46

Absolutely, Joni.

This is a much broader issue than we generally make it, like Ann also said.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Dax
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by Dax » 12 May 2015, 14:48

I also get frustrated how the question of women and garments eventual turns to how men still find women in garments "sexy", "attractive" and "desirable" so women really dont have to be concerned about garments. Women's issues with garments are not about MEN as surprising as that may seem. Women tell men the many other issues women have with garments but the only thing most men "get" is that garments can make it difficult for women to feel attractive/intimate therefore that may lead to a decrease in sex for men hence this is the only issue that really matters to men. Men are not concerned or even aware of the many other issues garments can cause women. Men can not relate to the multiple yeast infections, mastitis, rashes, hot flashes, soooo many extra layers of clothing, the swamp that ensues, being pregnant and the complete impracticality of trying to nurse while wearing garments. Men do not experience these daily occurrences and therefor dismiss the validity of these "women garment issues" as being exaggerated or negligible at best. The potential physical problems of garment wearing do not even touch on the psychological issue that occur for many women. Eating disorder triggers, depression, sensory sensitivity/overload, self loathing, change in views of personal autonomy and personal choice. These are in my opinion a much greater and detrimental issue to the well being of women that most women let alone men have a hard time admitting to even themselves.

The only comparison I could think to describe to men how foreign and frustrating garments can be for women would be to ask the men to imagine that the church was run by 80 year old women (yes I know lost half of you right there) but try to think how you would feel if women suddenly were in charge and issued a "spiritual command" that all men of the church would now be required to wear ladies lingerie/underwear after having gone through the temple. I'm talking full on lacy bra and panties at ALL times even in the men's locker room, on sports teams, while in the military, while running marathons,under business suits. Yes women can remove garments for physical activities I know but for some reason nursing, pregnancy and chronic yeast infections are not excuses for removing them so for this exercise to make the frustration more equal men are not suppose to remove them except for showering and sex.

So the guys go from being in boxers/briefs and tshirts their ENTIRE lives, which is the societal norm and healthy for males physically, to suddenly having to wear a bra and panties. Men would argue that these garments are made for women, that you don't need the extra layer of a bra or that the underwear does't support you in the ways a man needs to be physically sound. That the extra heat could cause a decrease in sperm count for some men and infections. That you feel less like a man when you are asked to wear what essentially boils down to underwear made and designed for women. That it is hard for you to feel masculine and like your true self when you put on them on. That they affect how you view yourself as a man.

Then the women of the church would simply say that your concerns are exaggerated and invalid because we women don't have any problems wearing garments so why would you men?

That you men are actually just caving to societal pressures of what society thinks a man should wear to be attractive to WOMEN and since we women of the church still find you attractive what is the problem? Then we women leaders along with other men who have no issues with the garments tell you guys that you need to pray and ask for a testimony of the spiritual beauty of garments. Not to worry about your physical discomfort,that you will get used to it when you accept these women's underwear, I mean garments as God's will for you. That you simply need more faith.

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