Can I complain about garments?

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cwald
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by cwald » 09 May 2015, 21:41

Thanks for the support Spock.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 09 May 2015, 21:41

Thank you, sincerely, for your contributions. Go now with God - or with whatever gives you meaning and peace.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 09 May 2015, 21:43

[Admin Note]: \back to the post and a discussion of the garment
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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cwald
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by cwald » 09 May 2015, 22:00

cwald wrote:Why is not wearing them "not an option?"

Yeah. This is a serious, serious problem within the Mormon church...
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

Ann
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by Ann » 09 May 2015, 23:53

cwald wrote: As long as most active members who share this concern continue to wear garments out of fear, shame and blind obedience just to pass a litmus test to get a temple recommend, i doubt much will change faster than a snail pace.
I would like the whole issue to go private. If garment wearing is really between the individual and the Lord, then let it be.

Let us be individuals. Wearing garments doesn't bother my husband at all. He doesn't find them uncomfortable; they don't mess with his masculinity. I'm different. I wish the church would let me be different, just like my husband does. My love and respect for him has only increased during these last couple of years. Garments are so woven into LDS lives and marriages. He could have made it hell for me, but he didn't.

I remember the David O. McKay biographer talked about the shift during his tenure from a thundering, "Let them obey!" to, "Let them grow." I'd like the church to trust us. Trust that we could still value the garment even if we didn't wear it every minute of our lives.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

Dax
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by Dax » 10 May 2015, 08:15

Ann.^^..yes but if they didn't hold the ultimate control (temple recommends ie seeing your children married) how would the men of the church be able to control women's bodies and modesty? Sorry but garments while suppose to be symbolic and a reminder of the potential beauty of the temple have become the most outward sign of a WOMAN's personal righteousness in the eyes of church members. There wouldn't be a need to have babies and children cover their shoulders and knees if it wasn't such a HUGE marker of a "good and godly lds female". Beyond that garments would be fine if as you said left to each of us to decide how to wear and respect them. It won't ever happen though IMO simply because the emphasis has moved from the potential spiritual beauty they are suppose to represent to what / who they control now ie WOMEN and their bodies. Sad because they could be a beautiful if left to the individual to wear as they saw fit.

Roy
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by Roy » 10 May 2015, 10:12

Ann wrote:I would like the whole issue to go private. If garment wearing is really between the individual and the Lord, then let it be.
I look at garments sorta like wedding rings. I no longer wear my wedding ring. This does not mean anything bad as some people might suppose. I know that I am married. I know that I am covenanted to one woman. If it was important to her that I wear it as an outward marking then I would but she seems ok with it not being worn.

In addition, we have garments - that are sorta like giant wedding rings to remind us of our bond to each other.

I have taken to not wearing garment tops to work to help control a sweaty armpits problem. I am also changing my deoderant routine and the colors of dressshirts that I wear to help. I have explained my intentions to DW and she is ok with it.

I tried to institute garment free evenings every other night - just for the added intimacy. This did get some pushback. We still do the garment free evenings just not on a schedule.

I believe that Garments are hard because of the meaning that other people attach to them. I recommend a policy of "Don't ask, Don't tell!" with priesthood leaders and patient and loving explanation with spouses.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by hawkgrrrl » 10 May 2015, 11:27

I don't think most men realize just how effective garments are at killing any desire for intimacy for women. It's nearly impossible to feel sexy in them (for women), and women need some ramp up time.

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cwald
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by cwald » 10 May 2015, 18:42

hawkgrrrl wrote:I don't think most men realize just how effective garments are at killing any desire for intimacy for women. It's nearly impossible to feel sexy in them (for women), and women need some ramp up time.
Interesting. Is there anything we as members can do to remedy the problem of garment requirements?
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

Ann
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Re: Can I complain about garments?

Post by Ann » 10 May 2015, 20:22

cwald wrote:
hawkgrrrl wrote:I don't think most men realize just how effective garments are at killing any desire for intimacy for women. It's nearly impossible to feel sexy in them (for women), and women need some ramp up time.
Interesting. Is there anything we as members can do to remedy the problem of garment requirements?
(hawkgrrrl - +1)

I'm starting in my own little family. I hope that my husband's acceptance of me will percolate out. Maybe if someone in HPG goes on a tear about garments, he'll feel forced by his conscience to say (all Uchtdorf), "Stop it."

I initially felt somewhat sheepish around my older daughter, and she assured me with these exact words, "I don't judge you." Maybe I've created some breathing room in her thinking.

In theory, I would like my bishop to understand a person like me. I love him like a brother, but while the culture is so exacting on this issue, I can't risk talking with him.

What people who have no use at all for garments could do to help: Tread lightly on the subject.

P.S. I look forward to the day your crazy alien avatar returns.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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