14 Fundamentals of Falsifying the Prophet

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Eternity4me
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Re: 14 Fundamentals of Falsifying the Prophet

Post by Eternity4me » 12 Jan 2015, 21:53

Hawkgrrl wrote:
This is so discouraging. This is probably the worst talk ever written. I'm also not looking forward to any Benson "To the Mothers In Zion" BS.
I couldn't agree with you more. No "Prophet" has ever caused me to feel more guilt than ETB. Because of him I quit a job I loved because I felt so guilty working outside the home (and it was a part time job). And the pressure to have more children was immense. I am paying the price today career-wise now that I have to support my family and I spent many years out of the work force. Don't get me wrong, I love my kids, but we shouldn't be shamed into staying home with them. And I still feel guilty today when I have to leave my teenager at home on her own. The indoctrination was very effective. Imagine that, a woman as the sole support for her family. Who would have ever thought? :crazy:

rachael
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Re: 14 Fundamentals of Falsifying the Prophet

Post by rachael » 13 Jan 2015, 00:39

Thanks Sheldon for the op. I jumped links to various blogs and ended up reading JJ Dewy's story. During my last bout of activity I was SS teacher. We were in the OT. I rarely attended RS but my sister was the institute teacher. She needed me to help with the lessons because her CPA hubby was unable to assist as much because of tax season. It was all good at first because I didn't have the manual. It was supposedly on sections of the Standard Works so my input was mainly on what I was inspired that the particular sections were about. Made crossword puzzles that needed reading the scriptures necessary to solve.

When I got the manual, wow. It didn't help that a training session the week I got the manual warned of divergence from it. It was saturated with 14F-ish principles. I couldn't dispute my TBM sister in a co-lesson (didn't attend the training) but I didnt assist or participate anymore. Then i was called to RS to teach and there it was again. i did not magnify that calling needless to say

rachael
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Re: 14 Fundamentals of Falsifying the Prophet

Post by rachael » 13 Jan 2015, 02:25

To put the above in context I hadn't been a member in 20+ yrs. I don't remember having all this corrrealated stuff. It was shocking. I miss the rouge good old days.

rachael
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Re: 14 Fundamentals of Falsifying the Prophet

Post by rachael » 13 Jan 2015, 02:28

I love your posts, E4M.

nibbler
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Re: 14 Fundamentals of Falsifying the Prophet

Post by nibbler » 13 Jan 2015, 06:22

rachael wrote:To put the above in context I hadn't been a member in 20+ yrs. I don't remember having all this corrrealated stuff. It was shocking. I miss the rouge good old days.
The correlated material can be bland, even bad at times but the rogue good old days can be a double edged sword. Instruction not to diverge from the manual is still just a suggestion, the rouge good old days are still alive and well in pockets of zion. I've found that can be a good thing or a bad thing. Maybe that's the "benefit" of the correlated message, it smooths out the highs and the lows - for better or for worse it's a middle ground.

Thanks for the quotes mackay11. I don't know whether I would bring any of them up in class personally but that's because I already experienced a 14 fundamentals class on the last Sunday of 2014. From the comments shared I don't think anyone in my class is struggling with accepting the 14 fundamentals, it's very much gospel to them. Those quotes are excellent for people that do struggle with the 14 fundamentals because they show a more ...dare I say... rational voice from church leaders. Please continue to share as you find them. I'll do the same.

Interesting that one of your quotes comes from D. Todd Christofferson. He also shared this BY quote in the most recent GC:
I do not wish any Latter Day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ,—the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied. I wish them to know for themselves and understand for themselves.
It's a tough call for me. I'd rather not see teachings that could be harmful to people go unchallenged, at the same time I have to consider what the class members deem to be harmful, not what I consider to be harmful.

nibbler
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Re: 14 Fundamentals of Falsifying the Prophet

Post by nibbler » 13 Jan 2015, 06:37

Daeruin wrote:The blog cites D Michael Quinn regarding Pres Kimball's reaction. I wonder who Quinn cites? Does anyone have that book?
LookingHard wrote:I heard that pres kimball's son has a book that he talked about it. I have it on my to-read list.
Here's what I found:

Lengthen Your Stride: The Presidency of Spencer W. Kimball – by Edward L. Kimball.

I don't know whether this is a direct quote from the book but this is a quote that I've seen along side the source I mentioned.
In February 1980, Elder [Ezra Taft] Benson gave a talk at BYU titled "Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet" that emphasized the precedence of living prophet's statements over those of earlier prophets. ... Spencer felt concern about the talk, wanting to protect the church against being misunderstood as espousing ultraconservative politics or an unthinking "follow the leader" mentality. The First Presidency called Elder Benson in to discuss what he had said and asked him to make explanation to the full Quorum of the Twelve [Apostles] and other general authorities. Elder Benson told them that he meant only to "underscore President Kimball's prophetic call."
How SWK responded to the talk might be a moot point anyway. The points were reiterated in GC in 2010. How did leadership respond to them then? I haven't heard of anyone re-recording a 2010 GC talk to correct points of instruction. :think:

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mom3
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Re: 14 Fundamentals of Falsifying the Prophet

Post by mom3 » 13 Jan 2015, 10:27

I do not wish any Latter Day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ,—the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied. I wish them to know for themselves and understand for themselves.
Thanks Nibbler.

I found out last night my favorite BY about getting my own answer may not be legit. Boy was I disappointed. I still plan to research and confirm the quote isn't legit, but I had used it so often and was danged upset. This smooths my heart a bit and is perfectly quoteable as a defense against 14 Whatever's.

Hawkgrrl wrote
This is so discouraging. This is probably the worst talk ever written. I'm also not looking forward to any Benson "To the Mothers In Zion" BS.
Eternity4me wrote
I couldn't agree with you more. No "Prophet" has ever caused me to feel more guilt than ETB. Because of him I quit a job I loved because I felt so guilty working outside the home (and it was a part time job).


I hear what you are both saying, and I know others who feel the same way, the irony in my life is that one of my most profound "whispers from heaven" came during that talk. I too was feeling guilty and less than obedient. At the time of the talk I worked full time, I drove a car that was factory built, no one had even test driven it. I had been married nearly 5 years and had no kids, while many of the other women my age were busting out 2nd and 3rd kids. I remember looking down at my Nordstroms dress, hearing the clamoring babies and beginning to pray. My prayer was totally apology based, how sorry I was too God for being so worldly, selfish, etc. Mid prayer a total rush of "Stop. I have this under control. You are fine. Be at Peace" come over me. I walked out of the meeting feeling peaceful, calm, empowered. Fortunately I had never heard the 14 Fundamentals I don't know if I would have listened to the answer of my prayers if I had.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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mom3
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Re: 14 Fundamentals of Falsifying the Prophet

Post by mom3 » 13 Jan 2015, 11:01

My 2 counter quotes to 14 Fundamentals. Both from Brigham Young. Verified.
Some may say, "Brethren, you who lead the Church, we have all confidence in you, we are not in the least afraid but what everything will go right under your superintendence; all the business matters will be transacted right; and if brother Brigham is satisfied with it, I am." I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied. I wish them to know for themselves and understand for themselves, for this would strengthen the faith that is within them. Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, "If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are," this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord.
Every man and woman in this kingdom ought to be satisfied with what we do, but they never should be satisfied without asking the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, whether what we do is right.​[3] Brigham Young, (6 October 1855) Journal of Discourses 3:45.
What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.
Brother Joseph W. Young remarked this morning that he wished the people to receive the word of the Lord through his servants, be dictated by them, and have no will of their own. I would express it in this wise: God has placed within us a will, and we should be satisfied to have it controlled by the will of the Almighty. Let the human will be indomitable for right....
Let all persons be fervent in prayer, until they know the things of God for themselves and become certain that they are walking in the path that leads to everlasting life; then will envy, the child of ignorance, vanish, and there will be no disposition in any man to place himself above another; for such a feeling meets no countenance in the order of heaven. Jesus Christ never wanted to be different from his father: they were and are one. If a people are led by the revelations of Jesus Christ, and they are cognizant of the fact through their faithfulness, there is no fear but they will be one in Christ Jesus, and see eye to eye. Brigham Young, (12 January 1862) Journal of Discourses 9:150.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

dash1730
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Re: 14 Fundamentals of Falsifying the Prophet

Post by dash1730 » 16 Jan 2015, 19:50

May I suggest Chapter 3 of the same manual scheduled for PR & RS the second Sunday in February. It has some good stuff on Free Agency.

I am teaching Chapter 3, and following are some supplemental quotes I have collected for it. Following is my mostly unedited material:

Dieter Uchtdorf, April 2013
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng

But while the Atonement is meant to help us all become more like Christ, it is not meant to make us all the same. Sometimes we confuse differences in personality with sin. We can even make the mistake of thinking that because someone is different from us, it must mean they are not pleasing to God. This line of thinking leads some to believe that the Church wants to create every member from a single mold—that each one should look, feel, think, and behave like every other. This would contradict the genius of God, who created every man different from his brother, every son different from his father. Even identical twins are not identical in their personalities and spiritual identities. It also contradicts the intent and purpose of the Church of Jesus Christ, which acknowledges and protects the moral agency—with all its far-reaching consequences—of each and every one of God’s children. As disciples of Jesus Christ, we are united in our testimony of the restored gospel and our commitment to keep God’s commandments. But we are diverse in our cultural, social, and political preferences.



Elder Todd Christofferson, May 2012, The Doctrine of Christ
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... t?lang=eng
The Prophet Joseph Smith confirmed the Savior’s central role in our doctrine in one definitive sentence: “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”



Joseph Smith
History of the Church, 5:24
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... &hideNav=1

“Christ was condemned by the righteous Jews because he took sinners into his society. He took them upon the principle that they repented of their sins. … The nearer we get to our Heavenly Father, the more are we disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls to take them upon our shoulders and cast their sins behind our back. … There should be no license for sin, but mercy should go hand in hand with reproof. … You must repent and get the love of God.”



http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/ldsnewsro ... n-doctrine
LDS Newsroom, "Approaching Mormon Doctrine," (4 May 2007)

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency...and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles...counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.



Joseph Smith
History of the Church, 5:24
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... &hideNav=1

Christ was condemned by the righteous Jews because he took sinners into his society. He took them upon the principle that they repented of their sins. … The nearer we get to our Heavenly Father, the more are we disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls to take them upon our shoulders and cast their sins behind our back. … There should be no license for sin, but mercy should go hand in hand with reproof. … You must repent and get the love of God.”



Elder Uchtdorf
General Conference, Oct. 2009
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... y?lang=eng

“Please encourage your families, your quorum members, everyone to learn and become better educated. If formal education is not available, do not allow that to prevent you from acquiring all the knowledge you can. Under such circumstances, the best books, in a sense, can become your “university”—a classroom that is always open and admits all who apply. Strive to increase your knowledge of all that is “virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy.” Seek knowledge “by study and also by faith.”



Elder Bruce Hafen,
“On Dealing with Uncertainty” Ensign July 1979.
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg\
"We need to develop the capacity to form judgments of our own about the value of ideas, opportunities, or people who may come into our lives.

We won’t always have the security of knowing whether a certain idea is “Church approved,” because new ideas don’t always come along with little tags attached to them saying whether they have been reviewed at Church headquarters.

Whether in the form of music, books, friends, or opportunities to serve, there is much that is lovely, of good report, and praiseworthy that is not the subject of detailed discussion in Church manuals or courses of instruction.

Those who will not risk exposure to experiences that are not obviously related to some Church word or program will, I believe, live less abundant and meaningful lives than the Lord intends.

We must develop sufficient independence of judgment and maturity of perspective that we are prepared to handle the shafts and whirlwinds of adversity and contradiction that may come to us.

When those times come, we cannot be living on borrowed light. We should not be deceived by the clear-cut labels others may use to describe circumstances that are, in fact, not so clear.

Our encounters with reality and disappointment are, actually, vital stages in the development of our maturity and understanding.”



Richard Lloyd Anderson, “Parables of Mercy,” Ensign, Feb 1987, 20
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... &hideNav=1

Any religious group that values purity and morality must deal with the problem of clannishness. However, clannishness can be largely avoided if the members of the group have a vigorous concern to share. There is a big difference between reaching out and shutting out—and Jesus steadily opposed every hint of the latter.


Note: The following quote is from a man who is not Mormon, but IMO gives the best description on a spiritual level of what free agency can be.
Victor Frankl
Man’s Search For Meaning

We who lived, in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms — to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.

And there were always choices to make. Every day, every hour, offered the opportunity to make a decision, a decision which determined whether you would or would not submit to those powers which threatened to rob you of your very self, your inner freedom; which determined whether or not you would become the plaything of circumstance, renouncing freedom and dignity to become molded into the form of the typical inmate.

About Victor Frankl from Wikipedia.com:
Viktor Emil Frankl, M.D., Ph.D. (26 March 1905 – 2 September 1997)[1][2] was an Austrian neurologist and psychiatrist as well as a Holocaust survivor. Frankl was the founder of logotherapy, which is a form of existential analysis, the "Third Viennese School of Psychotherapy". His best-selling book Man's Search for Meaning (published under a different title in 1959: From Death-Camp to Existentialism, and originally published in 1946 as Trotzdem Ja Zum Leben Sagen: Ein Psychologe erlebt das Konzentrationslager, meaning Nevertheless, Say "Yes" to Life: A Psychologist Experiences the Concentration Camp) chronicles his experiences as a concentration camp inmate, which led him to discover the importance of finding meaning in all forms of existence, even the most brutal ones, and thus, a reason to continue living.



Re: A little venting, but a question about the need for faith
Unread postby eman » 2013 Apr 26, 22:38

Martha wrote:... Why do I even need to believe in any these things or in anything. I know who I am. I know the way I want to live my life. I am starting to wonder how helpful or important it is to try and develop faith again. Maybe its time to set all this aside and just live my life being as loving and kind to others as I can. i dont need faith to do that.


I'll take up the "for" argument... :D I'll borrow heavily from "The God Who Weeps" by Terryl Givens. I'd highly recommend giving it a read.
First quote:

The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true and which we have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing to be true

For me this is faith. I have absolutely no certainty that God exists. Yet I hope He does and to me, it is reasonable that He does. Sure we can explain away much of the creation of life, but yet there are some things for which science has no explanation.

Whatever sense we make of this world, whatever value we place upon our lives and relationships, whatever meaning we ultimately give to our joys and agonies, must necessarily be a gesture of faith.

This reminds me of a video I saw where Russell M. Nelson (Q12) relates the following: "I was in a small airplane and all of a sudden the engine on the wing caught fire. It exploded and burning oil was poured all over the right side of the airplane and we started to dive toward the earth. We were spinning down to our death. Oh, this woman across the aisle, I felt so sorry for her, she was just absolutely uncontrollably hysterical and I was calm. I was totally calm, even though I knew I was going down to my death, I was ready to meet my maker We didn’t crash, we didn’t die." He goes on to explain that "if you’ve got enough faith you can handle difficulties knowing that with an eternal perspective that all will be well." With this in mind, again, I choose to have faith in God and in life beyond this one because it is better than the alternative to me. I know there was a long thread about whether it would be so bad if there wasn't life beyond, but still, I choose to believe that my life has greater purpose for no other reason then that I want to. It is a pleasant thought.

Whether we consider the whole a product of impersonal cosmic forces, a malevolent deity, or a benevolent god, depends not on the evidence, but on what we choose, deliberately and consciously, to conclude from that evidence.

Early in my faith crisis I was convinced that everything about the church was fraud. I barely believed in God at all. I believed that the "evidence" compelled me to believe the church was false. Since then I've come to understand that the motive or truthfulness of something can't be determined by simply weighing the evidence. All known evidence can (and sometimes does) point to a defendant on trial as being guilty and yet after being convicted some piece of evidence will come to light that completely invalidates all the evidence of the conviction (such as DNA has done recently). Thus in most cases it is left up to us, imperfect people with limited understanding to choose for ourselves to the best of our ability what we want to believe.

Faith often asks us to turn a blind eye to the incongruities and inconsistencies of belief in the divine. But reason comes up short as well in accounting for those moments of deepest love and yearning, of unspeakable calm in the midnight of anguish, of the shards of light visible to the inner eye alone.

In the depth of my faith crisis I completely ignored all those things that can't be explained by science and reason (confirmation bias towards no divine intervention). Now however, I recognize that there do seem to be "miracles," things that happen that just defy reason. I don't know why it seems to happen to some but not others and seems so random. Nevertheless, I believe somehow miracles can happen.

The greatest act of self-revelation occurs when we choose what we will believe, in that space of freedom that exists between knowing that a thing is, and knowing that a thing is not.

I feel that since my faith crisis I understand a little better what we teach about the need to come to earth, outside the presence of God, in order to have choice. When I was...more orthodox in the LDS faith, I believed I had choice. Yet believing that I knew sort of compelled me to act in accordance with the teachings of the church. If not, I would suffer guilt until I repented and complied. I feared that poor choices would lead me to Hell. Now that I don't KNOW everything is the way the church teaches, truly have been able to choose for myself the path I would walk. I could leave the church tomorrow and never go back. I would not suffer guilt or fear of Hell and damnation. I'd miss my friends...probably....well, some of them :wtf: But I could still do it. So now I know a little more about my self. I know that I live the way I do because I want to, not because of some reward or fear of punishment. I want to be clear that I am NOT implying that should someone choose NOT to believe in God or the church that they are any less free or worse off. Nor do I believe that God will condemn them for it. I believe God will judge us based on the reasons why we do what we do according to the beliefs of our heart.

Faith is a choice. For me choosing to believe in more than this life brings me hope and joy. As Ray said, determine what would bring you the most joy and hope, justify it with reason, and choose to have faith in it.
I may not walk the straight and narrow, but I try to cross it as often as I can.
---J Golden Kimball

Eternity4me
Posts: 76
Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 10:21

Re: 14 Fundamentals of Falsifying the Prophet

Post by Eternity4me » 16 Jan 2015, 23:40

Dash,

You have been very busy :clap: I do take issue with this one from the lds.org site about what is doctrine:
This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
So this one is basically telling us the the Proclamation on the Family is now considered doctrine, yet I don't recall it being voted on by the membership of the church and canonizing it. I can't agree that it is the doctrine of our Heavenly Father that men are supposed to support the family and woman are supposed to stay home and do the dishes. There is a disclaimer that sometimes circumstances call for a different solution, but that quote is often left out, and those who find themselves in those circumstances far outweigh the few that are considered the "ideal". The PF is just another document that makes us feel that we don't quite measure up if we aren't a TBM.

And I know that many take issue with the directive on marriage, but I confess that one makes me less irritated than the one cited above, because it isn't as personal to me.

And Rachael, thanks for the kind words :D

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