Not angry, just done - fMh polygamy post

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
User avatar
nibbler
Posts: 4356
Joined: 14 Nov 2013, 07:34
Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe

Re: Not angry, just done - fMh polygamy post

Post by nibbler » 28 Oct 2014, 14:27

mom3 wrote:Polygamy doesn't get my because, sometime ago I decided, probably without realizing it, I am not participating. If that gets me a lower kingdom so be it.
That's the same conclusion I've come to as well. Not for me, and let the "consequences" follow. This life or the next.

The concept of a "lower" kingdom and "highest" level of a particular kingdom is also up for debate as far as I'm concerned. I think I'll focus more on humanity becoming one in Christ and ditch the whole higher and lower subdividing - those labels seem to perpetuate human constructs of us and them, castes, positions from which one can look down on others, etc. If I make it to heaven am I really going to be that concerned that someone else made it "higher" than me? I'm in heaven, right? ;) Would I look down on someone "lower" than me... or would I continue to have hopes and dreams of everyone being equal?
None of the things one frets about ever happen. Something one's never thought of does.
― Connie Willis , Doomsday Book

User avatar
mom3
Posts: 4074
Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: Not angry, just done - fMh polygamy post

Post by mom3 » 28 Oct 2014, 16:40

Ann - I just woke up from a medication nap and realized my comment could come off flippant towards others who have pain with polygamy - that was not my intention. Their anger, hurt, pain is not dismissive and I think the essay had such a great opportunity to heal pain, close doors, or accept responsibility that was not taken and I can't blame anyone if that nailed the coffin for them. And the Heavenly Father that my heart imagines totally understands.

If my answer added to anyone's pain - I apologize.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

User avatar
NewLight
Posts: 148
Joined: 04 Feb 2014, 05:18

Re: Not angry, just done - fMh polygamy post

Post by NewLight » 28 Oct 2014, 19:13

Thanks for posting this Ann -- it definitely makes one think and feel some of the anguish this young woman has experienced through a lifetime because of this church doctrine :sick: . To me, polygamy was just one doozy of a mistake and I guess I expressed that sufficiently on the other thread.

On the positive side though, I am glad the Church did finally say something about such a forbidden topic. The essays they posted would have gotten someone disciplined not that many years ago. I hope that they will continue moving forward and someday reach a point where people can get some relief. It's just baby steps on this round, but at least it is something.

User avatar
Heber13
Site Admin
Posts: 7183
Joined: 22 Apr 2009, 16:37
Location: In the Middle

Re: Not angry, just done - fMh polygamy post

Post by Heber13 » 28 Oct 2014, 20:51

mom3 wrote: the Heavenly Father that my heart imagines totally understands.
:thumbup:
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Ann
Posts: 2572
Joined: 09 Sep 2012, 02:17

Re: Not angry, just done - fMh polygamy post

Post by Ann » 28 Oct 2014, 20:52

mom3 wrote: I think the essay had such a great opportunity to heal pain, close doors, or accept responsibility that was not taken...
Yup, really too bad.
If my answer added to anyone's pain - I apologize.
No worries at all! The issue for me anymore isn't polygamy per se, it's whether I fit into a church that has just condoned it anew.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

User avatar
mom3
Posts: 4074
Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: Not angry, just done - fMh polygamy post

Post by mom3 » 28 Oct 2014, 21:39

No worries at all! The issue for me anymore isn't polygamy per se, it's whether I fit into a church that has just condoned it anew.

Ann - You have my support whichever way you need to go.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

User avatar
West
Posts: 215
Joined: 26 Aug 2014, 14:42

Re: Not angry, just done - fMh polygamy post

Post by West » 28 Oct 2014, 22:58

Thanks, Ann, for sharing the article, and thanks everyone for your responses. The thread has been both disheartening and a pleasure to read, in that it deals with such a sensitive topic that's always bothered me, but at the same time, it's comforting to know that there are so many others out there who struggle with this part of the church's history and doctrine. I've learned a lot about polygamy that I didn't know before joining this group, and I'm very glad for the knowledge and insight from y'all.
Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. -Albert Einstein

And God said 'Love Your Enemy,' and I obeyed him and loved myself. -Kahlil Gibran

Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 16757
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Not angry, just done - fMh polygamy post

Post by Curt Sunshine » 29 Oct 2014, 08:49

Most members who lived while it was being taught actively didn't accept it personally or live it. You aren't alone by any stretch.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

User avatar
Heber13
Site Admin
Posts: 7183
Joined: 22 Apr 2009, 16:37
Location: In the Middle

Re: Not angry, just done - fMh polygamy post

Post by Heber13 » 29 Oct 2014, 09:40

Ray DeGraw wrote:Most members who lived while it was being taught actively didn't accept it personally or live it. You aren't alone by any stretch.
Wasn't it estimated to be about 7-8% of membership? I seem to remember seeing that estimate, although it was difficult to know because of so much hidden from public records for obviousl reasons.

Both sides of my family (mom's and dad's) all go back to pioneer ancestry. I have not found anyone on either side of my family that accepted it or practiced it. I'm still looking, but haven't found any, and they were mostly all active according to family journals.

Where it was greatest was in the upper leadership positions of the church, I think.

But it is a good reminder...we don't like it and many even back then didn't...it almost seemed to become a test of faith for some called to live it. (shudder). It is as hard to imagine God would ask that, and even let it be lived for decades, just as a test. I mean, even Abraham was spared by the angel from sacrificing his son, after he proved he was willing...but he didn't actually have to carry it out.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 16757
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Not angry, just done - fMh polygamy post

Post by Curt Sunshine » 29 Oct 2014, 09:56

We tend to think there is no place for us if we don't accept or live something (in this case, polygamy), but most members throughout our modern history have not accepted or lived something (even polygamy when it was taught as the ideal).

I'm not trying to minimize the difficulty of something, particularly at the emotional level, but it's important to understand that our discomfort with or even rejection of something that is taught does not make us unique in the modern LDS Church. MANY people don't have a faith crisis specifically because they reject some things and just don't worry about doing so. Personalities differ, so I'm not saying one reaction is right and one is wrong. I'm just saying we are nowhere close to alone in this regard.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Post Reply