Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

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SilentDawning
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by SilentDawning » 25 Oct 2014, 21:46

I don't hate them either I live with 2 of them, and I have a little hobby business with another one, and we get along just fine. Yet another comes over to my house once every six months on on "unofficial" visit and I appreciate his unconditional love and kindness.

But that doesn't mean I don't object to things -- such as the judgmentalism many carry toward people who have found a different path in Mormonism. The handbook-thumping that locks us into tired, worn out ways of doing things at the expense of innovation and progress.

The other day I realized that I went to a Ward activity with a fairly low cut t-shirt and no garments on. Was probably obvious to people I'm not wearing g's. Probably will get some kind of negative/judgmental attitude about that eventually. That kind of thing bothers me, but I can't deny that Mormonism attracts good people, in general.

I just put on a activity with a bunch of TBM's and it was great. Everyone cooperated and there was harmony and hard work alongside everyone. There was respect and appreciation for the work I did, and the event was a success. I am happy to work alongside TBM's in the future.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

intothelight
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by intothelight » 27 Oct 2014, 00:36

I really can relate to what you say. I don't think I hate them quite so much anymore, but gosh, I sure used to! I think the main reason I don't as much any longer is merely because I don't interact with them so much. That is my main reason for 'leaving' the church. I go to sacrament meeting on Sunday - not even all of it - and sit outside in the foyer (yes, I'm one of those weirdos) - but that's it. As I've looked back on it, the reason I hated them so so much was because they held power over me. I guess that really is my main beef with the church - that it uses a person's feeling about themselves to get them to do what it wants them to do. Everyone does this I guess, but the church is sort of on another level. When somebody who you value makes you feel like you're not good enough. There's really nothing you can do that hurts another person worse. It's why Laman and Lemuel hated Nephi - and honestly, I can't say I blame them. I think anyone who had someone talk to them like Nephi talked to Laman and Lemuel would want to punch him in the nose :) I now let the church go it's way, and I go mine - though if I were honest, I'd have to admit it still gets to me on occasion. I've just had to let go of the church. My hatred towards it was eating me up. Maybe I'll get over it and get to a point where I can go back and remain emotionally healthy, but that is not the current state of affairs. Just keep an open mind I guess.

It's probably as much me as it is the church. There are plenty of emotionally healthy and happy people in the church. But I don't think the church is very good at accepting differences. It would rather see a person being 'right' more than it wants that person to feel accepted. And I'm not in agreement on this point. I love both Sister Superior and Father O'Mally in the Bells of St Mary's, but I think Father O'Mally had it right. But maybe God needs both kinds.

nibbler
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by nibbler » 27 Oct 2014, 05:51

Hate and dislike are very strong words, I can definitely say that I don't hate anyone in church. I've certainly had my ups and downs, my downs are directed at aspects of the culture or a specific teaching, not an individual.

I'll confess, Neil Andersen's talk on Joseph Smith during the most recent general conference made me angry. The first time ever that hearing a talk in church actually made me furious. Even then I like to think that the anger wasn't directed at him but rather the message. I truly have nothing against the man, I don't even know him. So what made me angry?

One reason, I attend church largely feeling like an outsider. If the discussion turns to judging outsiders the discussion turns to judging me, even though no one really knows they are doing it. They don't even have to be judging anything specific to me, say someone starts bad mouthing the Catholic church. I've never been a member of the Catholic church but my mind ends up placing me in the shoes of the Catholic and I feel the weight of the judgment. It's practically a reflex over which I have no control.

Another reason, I hate to see unhealthy attitudes and practices perpetuated. For instance, I see how a whitewashed presentation of church history has affected me negatively so I'm very sensitive when I see that cycle continue. I project myself into the untold number of people that may similarly be impacted negatively some day in the distant future.

I see Christ as a uniter, not a divider. Sometimes it's difficult to listen to an opinion or a talk given by someone that people view as being authoritative when that person is perhaps unintentionally giving a message that will ultimately cause division.
SilentDawning wrote:But that doesn't mean I don't object to things -- such as the judgmentalism many carry toward people who have found a different path in Mormonism. The handbook-thumping that locks us into tired, worn out ways of doing things at the expense of innovation and progress.
Yes, this is a tough pill to swallow. It's interesting in a way. The better church leaders will realize that callings aren't responsibilities that must be staffed and that the people staffing them have to display a minimum level of competence and performance to be worthy of the kingdom, callings are opportunities to grow. People need time to grow even if it comes at the expense of a job not being executed perfectly. Overcoming judgmentalism and some of the other negative aspects of church culture is really no different. People need time to overcome those things even if it comes at the expense of discomfort in dealing with them. The only difference is that we can openly talk about ways to help someone grow via a calling but more often than not all discussion on overcoming negative aspects of the culture are taboo. That makes the process much, much slower, if not completely stagnant.

I think we've all heard the story, or quite possibly been involved in a similar story ourselves, where a new group of acquaintances starts talking negatively about Mormons without knowing that a person in their group is a Mormon. I'm sure the group would have never gone there had they known and they may even be embarrassed once they find out that someone in the group was a Mormon. Don't we see something similar to the opposite during some of our meetings? People make the assumption that everyone in the group is of like mind so the attack gloves come off and some people in the group end up roughed up a little.

I'm way off message... again. I'll end it with a:

Forgive them; for they know not what they do.

Roadrunner
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by Roadrunner » 27 Oct 2014, 06:46

Ive been thinking about this question and what I've concluded is that I don't dislike TBMs, but those who think they know everything. I also was reminded that I struggle with know-it-alls in any environment, not just church.

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LookingHard
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by LookingHard » 27 Oct 2014, 07:15

I have been wanting to reply to this, but was having a hard time forming more of my thought. I like many of the comments from nibbler:

I don't hate, but I would state that I get very uncomfortable at times with some TBM's. There are some that are so full of love that never cause me stress. It is the one that do more judging and try to feel better by pointing out (even if only in their mind) by pointing out how weak others are.

I also have always been rather empathetic and just as someone mentioned, I often think immediately how something would be heard from another perspective.
nibbler wrote:Hate and dislike are very strong words, I can definitely say that I don't hate anyone in church. I've certainly had my ups and downs, my downs are directed at aspects of the culture or a specific teaching, not an individual.
I can't say I have never ever had any hatred towards anyone at church. There have been a few people, a bishop and an EQ Pres, that have actively hurt others (things like sexual abuse) and I can't say at the time I had forgiven them, but those are very rare.
nibbler wrote:I'll confess, Neil Andersen's talk on Joseph Smith during the most recent general conference made me angry.
Ditto. It left me with the feeling that TBM's will still view anybody that starts finding out about church history and doubt that those people must have just not had a testimony. I really think we need to get away from that. RUN away from that or we will continue to have people leave that could have stayed.
nibbler wrote:Another reason, I hate to see unhealthy attitudes and practices perpetuated. For instance, I see how a whitewashed presentation of church history has affected me negatively so I'm very sensitive when I see that cycle continue. I project myself into the untold number of people that may similarly be impacted negatively some day in the distant future.
The more I have though about it the more that I feel that is what bothers me. I don't want someone to go through the pain just because of whitewashed history. I don't see that it is needed - nor desired. We should be open.
nibbler wrote:Forgive them; for they know not what they do.
And I include, "Forgive me; for often I know not what I do."

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mom3
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by mom3 » 27 Oct 2014, 08:20

I knew when I typed it - they were strong words. They are also words I don't use very often, but they were the mostly deeply passionate words I could find to describe the intensity that does come in moments - most of them unexpected. For me, those unexpected's are the worst. Blindsided by a face book post or comment. As a general manner of speaking I make friends easy, I like people of all types, and am pretty like able in return. I think I feel the pressure of the divide so accutely sometimes I can't breathe and it brings emotions I don't face to surface and it kills me.

I do try to live by
forgive others - for they know not what they do
I just think I wear out sometimes. And I think I understand that this divide between teams isn't going away anytime soon. I wasn't ready for that piece of information.

Intothelight - I love this movie
I love both Sister Superior and Father O'Mally in the Bells of St Mary's, but I think Father O'Mally had it right. But maybe God needs both kinds.
Let's grab popcorn and enjoy it. :clap:
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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Heber13
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by Heber13 » 27 Oct 2014, 09:48

If I went back in time maybe 10 years ago, and met Heber13 from the past...I think I'd get bugged by myself and some things I said at times.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 27 Oct 2014, 16:34

Like was said, it's not "TBMs" who bother me as a group; it's those who are dead certain they know everything and anyone who disagrees with them are stupid, ignorant, blind fools.

That sort of person exists at each extreme - and there have been some comments even here in this forum over the years that fit that description on BOTH sides of the "conservative/liberal" spectrum. We all ought to try to be aware of when we are doing it and recognize that it's not just "them" who are prone to it. "Lord, is it I?" is a great question for a lot of things.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Ann
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by Ann » 28 Oct 2014, 10:49

Heber13 wrote:I have also looked inwardly at how I react to others. I have found that during my struggles when I was wrestling with issues I felt like I had somewhat of a spiritual sunburn.

While others touching me was not really them doing anything abnormal, it was at times excruciating to me, because of the state I was in. The pain was real, I just couldn't really put blame on others for it.

But I don't think I hated them, although at times things they said drove me to leave a class or the church building.

It took time to allow myself to heal. But I can be around everyone in the church now, and talk to family, and not feel the burn I once had.

Sometimes it takes time to heal. There isn't always blame or dislike towards others, there is just a burn and a healing time and we can find thins get better and more tolerable.
This is very useful. Thanks.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by hawkgrrrl » 28 Oct 2014, 12:30

My answer to this is that it's complicated. First, I think my aversion is because I cringe that it's a reflection on me when someone is ignorant, bigoted, or over-confident and wrong. I don't want to be associated with that. Second, I think it's because they so often defend things that shouldn't be defended. That's harmful. It causes actual harm. It also substitutes something else for the gospel, and the gospel is supposed to be the common ground. They throw out the baby to keep the bathwater. And if that takes root, what is there to the church?

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