New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

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richalger
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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by richalger » 23 Oct 2014, 16:31

SilentDawning wrote:Its amusing to me that at one time plural marriage was hard core doctrine. Now, in the essays it is something about which we don't know a lot.
Because of this on this and the change that has happened with other teachings, I like to focus on the basics of the gospel. The two great commandments, the doctrine of Christ and pure Mormonism as Ray puts it.

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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by richalger » 23 Oct 2014, 16:43

The interesting thing here... the angel with a sword thing might be a bit more plausible with the first plural wife, it becomes less and less plausible with subsequent plural wives. -nibbler
Maybe after the bad results of the first experience with polygamy, Joseph didn't want to do it again. Perhaps the Lord needed us to practice it as part of his plan.

The explanation 'increase the number of children born in the gospel covenant in order to “raise up seed unto [the Lord]." ' works well enough for me. I certainly am the beneficiary of that practice. I have several ancestors that practiced polygamy.

We all see darkly on this topic.

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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by Curt Sunshine » 23 Oct 2014, 17:37

Fwiw, there have been multiple, very clear statements for a long time that Joseph married multiple wives. For example, it's been in the Seminary and Institute manuals for decades.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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DarkJedi
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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by DarkJedi » 23 Oct 2014, 17:45

Yes, the fact that Joseph Smith was a polygamist was not news to me as it seems to have been for some. I was surprised to find he was also polyandrous when the other polygamy essay came out, and I was also surprised then that some of the "women" were very young - but any fan of the Beverly Hillbillies knows Ellie Mae was destined to be a spinster at 18 because she was so old.

I will be one of the first to say that the church has in the past attempted to hide some of its history. I will also say that JS being a polygamist was not something it hid. The details, on the other hand.... (And I do think this essay does a good job at explaining why there are few details - I find the explanation very plausible.) And FWIW, I don't buy the angel and sword thing, but I don't buy lots of other things JS said and did, either.
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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by nibbler » 23 Oct 2014, 19:19

The fact that Joseph Smith was a polygamist is going to be news to lots of members. If I mentioned some things in these essays a week ago there'd be a contingent of members wanting to challenge the information. There are people that would deny that he practiced polygamy altogether, others that would insist that all the marriages took place posthumously, yet others that would claim that all the marriages were only sealings to ensure a place in heaven, etc. Heck, I don't even expect that to change in the near future. People are going to know what they know.

Perhaps I'm in a unique corner of zion? I was just recently told that I couldn't show the people in my temple prep class the recent video about temple clothing. :crazy: :? :crazy:

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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by nibbler » 23 Oct 2014, 19:38

richalger wrote:The explanation 'increase the number of children born in the gospel covenant in order to “raise up seed unto [the Lord]." ' works well enough for me.
I've heard that more men crossed the plains than women. Of course the ages of the men are an important detail that's missing when I hear that statistic, makes a difference. Plus that's more to do with Utah polygamy. I believe that their point is that there were plenty of men to go around in order to raise seed. Besides:
God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham
:angel:
richalger wrote:We all see darkly on this topic.
Yup.

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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by Curt Sunshine » 23 Oct 2014, 20:06

I was just recently told that I couldn't show the people in my temple prep class the recent video about temple clothing. :crazy: :? :crazy:
Sometimes, all you can do is sigh. That just is stupid.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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LookingHard
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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by LookingHard » 23 Oct 2014, 20:12

Well you can still tell the class about the video and enough information where they can find out about it.

Or bear your testimony about how wonderful it is that the brethren have made it easier for us to talk with others about this topic by showing us how and how far we can go in talking about this.

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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by Heber13 » 24 Oct 2014, 09:29

nibbler wrote:The fact that Joseph Smith was a polygamist is going to be news to lots of members.
That has been my experience so far, nibbler. I was a member all my life, and didn't know it until late in life when starting to study church history on my own. And I've mentioned it to a few family or friends in a non-threatening way and have always had the response to me "I didn't know about Joseph. I certainly knew Brigham Young lived it." That has just been my experience. I think many members are not aware because it is not taught on Sunday.

...by the way...your joke landed very nicely :thumbup: ...nice "flare" in that post!
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by SunbeltRed » 24 Oct 2014, 10:17

Heber13 wrote:
...by the way...your joke landed very nicely :thumbup: ...nice "flare" in that post!

I was cracking up. You and Mr. Deity should get together and work out a sketch :smile: .

I was always aware of Polygamy growing up, but Polyandry was a new one (I came across Polyandry on FAIR when I was researching Polygamy. Double edged sword I guess....).

If those essays had come out five years ago, I might not have ever gotten on FAIR. I would have read them and thought, that is a pretty good explanation. There are some things in here I didn't know, but this is THE CHURCH distributing this so it must be all accurate and tidy. Unfortunately, being in the place I am now, I appreciate what the Church has done and I think they did a good job, but knowing more about the history and having read a lot more about it, they chose to highlight some things but not others. There are still some gaps.

For me, IMHO, the over arching problem (and I think this post on BCC has some good insights on this http://bycommonconsent.com/2014/10/22/i ... committed/) is that all my life I have been told that the Prophet and the Q15 are led directly by Christ. Whatever they say is direct revelation. But the essays keep making the point that although they do receive revelation, it is not very clear, and they have to discern what it means, and sometimes they make mistakes. So members have given time, money, resources, their lives to living commandments that then are changed or adapted and their sacrifices, in some instances, have been for naught.

I guess what I am trying to say, in a roundabout way, is that the essays don't really help me because my faith in the institution has been undermined and I don't know how to get it back (and I don't think I ever will). And that is a really hard paradigm to work in sometimes...

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