New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

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Roy
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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by Roy » 03 Nov 2014, 11:01

Ann wrote:http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/1764577-1 ... n-consider

I'd like to know what you all think of this. In my mind, this is why a lot of people just can't "let go" - there are too many present-day repercussions that are unacceptable.

(What a mess.)
I also liked the article but then when I got to the end and saw that the author was involved in OW - I felt that it would fall on deaf ears. Good message - poor messenger.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Ann
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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by Ann » 04 Nov 2014, 14:23

Roy wrote:
I also liked the article but then when I got to the end and saw that the author was involved in OW - I felt that it would fall on deaf ears. Good message - poor messenger.
I guess I feel the same way in reverse about the essays. Beloved messenger, terrible message.

P.S. I wish the author had left the issue of interviews for another time. It didn't fit, in my opinion.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

Ann
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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by Ann » 04 Nov 2014, 14:31

hawkgrrrl wrote:
The problem is that the church took a stance defending the indefensible...
Do you think there's any chance they'll do some rewriting?
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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journeygirl
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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by journeygirl » 04 Nov 2014, 16:00

Man in the Arena wrote: I don't buy the version that out of all the problems in the world, all the things Joseph could be asking about, he was overly concerned about what allowed Abraham's polygamous and cultural relationships... why not worry about world conflict, hunger, poverty, disease, moral failings of men, or any other great problem facing mankind. Instead, polygamy occupied Joseph's thoughts exactly why you would think they would.
Yeah, I agree, this has always been suspicious to me.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by Curt Sunshine » 04 Nov 2014, 17:54

why not worry about world conflict, hunger, poverty, disease, moral failings of men, or any other great problem facing mankind.
Those things did occupy his mind. It's neither fair nor accurate to make it an either/or conflict, no matter how one feels about polygamy.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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journeygirl
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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by journeygirl » 05 Nov 2014, 10:05

What I meant in my comment was that it seems strange he would think something that prophets did anciently should be brought back, especially since that happened before Christ. He didn't seem to pray if he should bring back stonings or animal sacrifice. The story that Joseph was reading scriptures and saw that practice and thought he should pray about it doesn't make sense. And frankly, now that I've typed that, why was it a principal that had to be restored? It certainly seems like a part of the old law that was done away with Christ. (although I don't believe God commanded it even then, the scriptures do not present that idea).

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Heber13
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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by Heber13 » 05 Nov 2014, 10:24

It's a good question, journeygirl. But we should remember, Joseph was doing this very thing about all topics, trying to bring back things he found in the bible that caught his attention. He was trying to "translate" the bible, and was heavy into lots of things, and it was definitely part of the restorationist movement, restoring things. He had a lot of things on his mind, especially more so as his office of prophet became more developed, defined, and expected by others.

He was also a product of his time and environment. So some things were being discussed in his day, like where Native Americans came from, and some things were not, such as animal sacrifice. It makes me wonder why he was thinking about this, but I do see questions did come as he read the bible (see James 1:5 or D&C 113). As stated in D&C 91, Joseph was trying to find out what things in the bible were true, and what were of men.

Prophets take questions to the Lord, and seek revelation on it. That is the pattern I see with prophets. So the process goes through mortals and what they are thinking about.

But it seems to be in line with other revelations...he was wondering about it, and sought an answer from the Lord. Just as Brigham Young did about the Adam-God theory...which we don't accept as truth in the church.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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nibbler
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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by nibbler » 05 Nov 2014, 10:49

I think there's at least some evidence that Joseph Smith did consider restoring animal sacrifice. What exactly he had in mind is anyone's guess.

I may have shared this before, if so sorry for the repetition.
D&C 13 wrote:Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.
There's commentary under "What Is Meant by the Sons of Levi Offering an Offering of Righteousness unto the Lord?" in the institute Doctrine and Covenants student manual:

http://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and- ... priesthood
Joseph Smith wrote:It is generally supposed that sacrifice was entirely done away when the Great Sacrifice [i.e.,] the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus was offered up, and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of sacrifice in the future; but those who assert this are certainly not acquainted with the duties, privileges and authority of the Priesthood, or with the Prophets.

The offering of sacrifice has ever been connected and forms a part of the duties of the Priesthood. It began with the Priesthood, and will be continued until after the coming of Christ, from generation to generation. …

These sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the Priesthood, will, when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi be purified, be fully restored and attended to in all their powers, ramifications, and blessings. This ever did and ever will exist when the powers of the Melchizedek Priesthood are sufficiently manifest; else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by the Holy Prophets be brought to pass. It is not to be understood that the law of Moses will be established again with all its rites and variety of ceremonies; this has never been spoken of by the prophets; but those things which existed prior to Moses’ day, namely, sacrifice, will be continued.
I don't mean to get into the debate over animal sacrifice but this is another piece of the puzzle that may show that JS considered lots of things in his goal to completely restore the ancient church(es).
Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
― Jesus

Curt Sunshine
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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by Curt Sunshine » 05 Nov 2014, 16:40

I am convinced that Joseph believed deeply in the concept of restoration - and he believed deeply in the Bible - and he believed deeply in visions - and he was invested deeply in trying to understand everything that hit him - and he was willing and eager to explore anything and everything, both mentally and in practical terms.

It's really hard, if not impossible, for most people to understand people who are like that - truly visionary people, no matter the nature of their visions. It also is really hard for most people to accept that truly visionary people are all over the map and have a hard time distinguishing between really good things and really bad things. For them, it's about the exploration and the newness of discovery MUCH more than about stability or avoidance of mistakes. They would rather try something and fail than never try at all. They also tend to be supremely confident, which makes it harder for them to self-analyze and recognize their own bad ideas as being bad ideas.

As I've said in other threads, I see the statement that Joseph's name would be had for good and evil differently than most members. I really like that statement, and I see it as "prophetic" and "revelatory" - since I believe it was the earliest statement we have that Joseph would do great and terrible things. I also think he HAD to be that type of person (someone who could make terrible mistakes) in order to do what he did overall - that part of his mission, if you will, couldn't have happened if he had been a "tamer" more "normal" person.

Finally, truly charismatic, visionary people are polarizing. People tend to love or hate them, with few people who know them being indifferent - and that is as much about most people not being able to see and accept complexity and, instead, wanting easy categories and black-and-white answers.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Man in the Arena
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Re: New Essay on Polygamy! (update, a 2nd one posted also)

Post by Man in the Arena » 05 Nov 2014, 17:59

Ray DeGraw wrote:
why not worry about world conflict, hunger, poverty, disease, moral failings of men, or any other great problem facing mankind.
Those things did occupy his mind. It's neither fair nor accurate to make it an either/or conflict, no matter how one feels about polygamy.
I respectfully disagree. I find the argument to be a fair and accurate representation of my point of view. I've already stated that I think Joseph Smith was a charlatan. Look if God came out of Heaven and said, "Nope, I really did tell him to institute polygamy, and that a flaming sword was hanging over his head (or the heads of the young women he coerced into it)..." Then I'd probably believe it (and lose a lot of respect for whoever we call God).

But, I don't believe it. I don't believe that God ordered it. I don't believe polygamy fits with who and what I believe God to be. I don't believe it ever was doctrinal. Given what we do know about the practice, the original Church explanation of the revelation concerning polygamy and the new and everlasting covenant somehow springing out of deep doctrinal study and concern over what allowed Abraham to practice polygamy is extremely self serving. I think it is fair and accurate to question the motivations of what I believe to be a vile and non-doctrinal practice, especially with all the other self serving statements and half-truths put out by the Church.

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