A little talk advice, please?

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DarkJedi
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Re: A little talk advice, please?

Post by DarkJedi » 13 Aug 2014, 04:54

I do have some Uchtdorf quotes in there already, Orson, but I love him and am certainly open to quoting him more. Can you be a little more specific about the quote you're referring to? It's not coming to mind for me.

I'm curious cwald, why do you think the members won't listen to Uchtdorf? I've generally found acceptance for what he says, but I will admit that I have had a conversation with a TBM about how "doubt your doubts" is often taken out of context and he could not seem to understand (and IMO was unwilling to try to understand) that there is great context to that statement. Is that the kind of thing you're referring to? I do agree with you that it's very easy for members of the church to become very much like the Pharisees, and that is a tiny little point I'm trying to make to the ones who will be listening.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Forgotten_Charity
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Re: A little talk advice, please?

Post by Forgotten_Charity » 13 Aug 2014, 05:21

Hi DJ. I try to give a grave of reference. I grew up in a heavy handed house. In that reference based on the things I heard through-out my life I would place that on a 2 2.5 at most out of 10, 10 being the most heavy handed. In they light I don't see at at all as heavy handed. It would be one of the least heavy handed things I have heard even in things like GC.

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SunbeltRed
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Re: A little talk advice, please?

Post by SunbeltRed » 13 Aug 2014, 05:30

DJ,

The original phrasing sounds good to me. I think its good for people to hear things directly and what you stated is not, IMO, harsh at all.

I was thinking about starting a similar thread this evening and posting what I have for my talk for this coming Sunday to get some advice as well. My topic has not been so easy this month.

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Orson
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Re: A little talk advice, please?

Post by Orson » 13 Aug 2014, 09:02

This is not the exact quote I was thinking of but is the same general idea.
From October 2009: "The Love of God"
...This is the essence of what it means to be a true disciple: those who receive Christ Jesus walk with Him.

But this may present a problem for some because there are so many “shoulds” and “should nots” that merely keeping track of them can be a challenge. Sometimes, well-meaning amplifications of divine principles—many coming from uninspired sources—complicate matters further, diluting the purity of divine truth with man-made addenda. One person’s good idea—something that may work for him or her—takes root and becomes an expectation. And gradually, eternal principles can get lost within the labyrinth of “good ideas.”
The quote I am thinking of may be from a BYU devotional or some other setting. I will keep looking.
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I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.

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Re: A little talk advice, please?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 13 Aug 2014, 10:03

The quote Orson just shared is the one I would use. I have quoted it, generally after mentioning the concept of a "hedge about the law".
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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DarkJedi
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Re: A little talk advice, please?

Post by DarkJedi » 13 Aug 2014, 10:18

I do like that quote and I plan to fit it in - probably before the line I am asking about.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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cwald
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Re: A little talk advice, please?

Post by cwald » 13 Aug 2014, 13:15

Orson wrote:This is not the exact quote I was thinking of but is the same general idea.
From October 2009: "The Love of God"
...This is the essence of what it means to be a true disciple: those who receive Christ Jesus walk with Him.

But this may present a problem for some because there are so many “shoulds” and “should nots” that merely keeping track of them can be a challenge. Sometimes, well-meaning amplifications of divine principles—many coming from uninspired sources—complicate matters further, diluting the purity of divine truth with man-made addenda. One person’s good idea—something that may work for him or her—takes root and becomes an expectation. And gradually, eternal principles can get lost within the labyrinth of “good ideas.”
This is why DJ. This talk was given in 2009, two years before they ran me and my family out of the church. And for what? Criticizing white shirt doctrines and suggesting Jonah might not have been a real man, but a myth?

This is, IMO, the most devastating aspect of mormonism. Urchtdorf recognized it. Warned about it. Yet the church has only gotten more Pharasacial and fundamental and traditional. The church is broken IMO.... it is why I don't blame the members and local leaders (or my family) for the corporation's mistakes.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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Re: A little talk advice, please?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 13 Aug 2014, 14:04

Yet the church has only gotten more Pharasacial and fundamental and traditional.


In most areas, the LDS Church is NOT that way compared to 2009. It's basically the same in lots of areas and more so in some, but it's markedly better in lots of others - in quite a few ways. It absolutely is FAR better in many ways than the Church of my youth (the height of the McConkie era), modesty discourse notwithstanding.

It's really important to recognize and acknowledge that, even as I understand how brutally difficult your own situation was and how fundamentalist too many areas still are.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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cwald
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Re: A little talk advice, please?

Post by cwald » 13 Aug 2014, 14:16

Ray DeGraw wrote:
Yet the church has only gotten more Pharasacial and fundamental and traditional.


In most areas, the LDS Church is NOT that way compared to 2009...
Really? What has changed since 2009?

Are white shirts no longer required to bless/pass the sacrament? Garments optional? Magical age of 16 disavowed? R-rated movies at one's owe discretion? 2 pair of earrings acceptable? Beards allowed for temple workers?

I'm really curious how the church has addressed and improved and become less Pharasacial the last 5 years. Can some of you stayldsers give some examples?

Can anyone point out one time where a prophet has come out since 2009 and said that white shirts were not doctrine... not needed to pass/bless the sacrament? How about ever?
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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On Own Now
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Re: A little talk advice, please?

Post by On Own Now » 13 Aug 2014, 15:45

cwald wrote:
Ray DeGraw wrote:
Yet the church has only gotten more Pharasacial and fundamental and traditional.


In most areas, the LDS Church is NOT that way compared to 2009...
Really? What has changed since 2009?
Hi cwald. I stopped by and was intrigued by this thread. I can offer some examples of how the Church is heading in the less-pharisaical direction. Is it enough? No, but it is a significant start. I live outside of the Mormon Corridor. Here are my observations:

1 - The fight against gay marriage has taken a major hit among rank-and-file members (IMO). I've still heard the absolutes, but I hear a LOT more people who've lost the will to fight, simply because they don't see the benefit to the Church. Mormon people are friendly to others by nature, and Prop 8, et al, strikes a dissonant chord for many of the people I see softening.

2 - A few weeks ago in EQ, the teacher brought up OW and KK... by name. Highlights were that we should be able to have open dialog about these things (short of organizing forces against a doctrine). He talked about how women in the Church have a lot of responsibility way beyond child bearing. While not far enough for me, this lesson would have been taboo five years ago. I raised my hand and expressed concerns that while I think we are doing a better job of it now, that we have to keep in mind that a lot of people struggle with the perceived role of women in our Church culture... that we have a history of treating them like second-class citizens. I reminded the people there that as late as the 60's women didn't speak in SM. I finished with how we need to find a way to make this better. There were a lot of heads nodding in agreement and the guy teaching ran with it further and finished the lesson with how WE, the people in EQ, needed to make improvements in this area. No way this topic gets the same treatment 5 years ago.

3 - We had an Area Authority 70 visit our ward and teach a combined third-hour lesson a few weeks ago. He talked about how the old demographic of two married parents with children doesn't represent everyone and we need to recognize that individuals have different stories. He said, "We need to remember that the Gospel is for everyone. But we unintentionally send a message that we only want certain types of people. We need to get past that and be welcoming to everyone."

cwald, I share your concern with the specific items you listed. White shirts are a big one for me. So much so, that if the aforementioned Area Authority 70 had opened the floor for questions, I was going to shoot my hand up and ask if the wearing of white shirts is a necessity for performing priesthood ordinances. So, yes, in some cases... many cases... the Church is stuck in 2nd gear. But in many other cases, from where I sit, the Church appears to be in a state of transition, and I'm glad to be a part of it. As with any monumental shift there are lurches and setbacks. I think the Church as a whole is much less Pharisaical, fundamentalist and traditional than 5 years ago. Of course, everyone's mileage will vary depending on the local congregants and leaders.
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“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― Carl Jung
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"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." ― Romans 14:13
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