Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

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nibbler
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by nibbler » 23 Jul 2014, 11:03

There may be a few visionaries at the top levels of leadership in the church but it still takes time to filter its way down to the lower levels. A seventy may say this today but it still takes time before local BPs or SPs can set aside their own personal beliefs to adopt a new policy. A big tent church may be completely foreign to some leaders so it takes time for them to catch the vision.

Smacked wrists can help push new policy forward at a quicker pace. I guess a part of the issue is that top leaders don't have much exposure to local leaders yanking TRs because someone liked the wrong thing on FB. No visibility, no chance to smack that wrist.
He who sits alone, sleeps alone, and walks alone, who is strenuous and subdues himself alone, will find delight in the solitude of the forest.
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DarkJedi
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by DarkJedi » 23 Jul 2014, 11:04

nibbler wrote:There may be a few visionaries at the top levels of leadership in the church but it still takes time to filter its way down to the lower levels. A seventy may say this today but it still takes time before local BPs or SPs can set aside their own personal beliefs to adopt a new policy. A big tent church may be completely foreign to some leaders so it takes time for them to catch the vision.

Smacked wrists can help push new policy forward at a quicker pace. I guess a part of the issue is that top leaders don't have much exposure to local leaders yanking TRs because someone liked the wrong thing on FB. No visibility, no chance to smack that wrist.
I do agree with you Nibbler - I also think they do very little slapping of wrists anyway.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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DarkJedi
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by DarkJedi » 23 Jul 2014, 11:06

Dax wrote:Dark Jedi, perhaps the church is not "purging" in the excommunication since, but I know personally two women that have have had their temple recommends revoked due to private face book posts or liking the OW page. One does not even have a profile up but she has been released from her callings and will not be able to attend her daughter's wedding in September. So I'm sorry but this just feels like more lip service from the top along with a heavy dose of plausible deniability! "We won't intervine with local leaders desicions." Well isn't that great?!?! Love the double speak!
No disrespect intended, Dax, and I believe you. Why do you think it's coming from the top, though? I've seen enough local leadership roulette to make me believe these guys are quite capable of doing that on their own with no encouragement from SLC.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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nibbler
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by nibbler » 23 Jul 2014, 11:24

DarkJedi wrote:I do agree with you Nibbler - I also think they do very little slapping of wrists anyway.
Yeah, that's for the best. It is a volunteer organization after all.

The one thing I will say is that the culture could do a better job of allowing people to ask questions. The only people I see asking the tough questions in church meetings these days are the investigators, the rest of us know better than to ask the tough questions... even though we've all got them. :(

It happened just this past Sunday, an investigator asked a question that challenged the doctrine being taught in the class. They asked in a very humble/innocent manner, they even cited some verses in the NT, it wasn't confrontational. I was a bit saddened by the reaction. The answers stuck to relating LDS specific teachings without providing any scriptural foundation for claims being made. Unfortunately the investigator may have learned that the classroom isn't a safe place to ask a sincere question. Perhaps they also learned that it's not safe to ask questions to members in general.

After class I thanked them for their question and told them how helpful I thought their comments were... and it's true. They brought up a good point.
He who sits alone, sleeps alone, and walks alone, who is strenuous and subdues himself alone, will find delight in the solitude of the forest.
— Buddha

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cwald
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by cwald » 23 Jul 2014, 11:33

DarkJedi wrote:...Why do you think it's coming from the top...
1. Personal experience. Area authority instructed SPs (my brother) to make neighboring SPs aware of apostates that belonged to MS/JD groups.

2. Because I take Kate and Kate's BP's word when they say that Clayton and Ballard were doing leadership training in their stake the month prior, and told the leaders that OW was an apostate group and that Kate was in apostacy.

How is that not coming from the top?

I would like to hear Clayton and Ballard come out and say they had nothing to do with this.

Won't happen. Why? Because they have too much integrity to flat out lie about their involvement, which they would have to do to support this ludicrous claim that this is just a local issue and the 70/Q15 had nothing to do with it and were not involved in the instigation of the process.

Sure. They will hang the local leaders out to dry, and continue to blame the locals for corporation's mistakes and problems, but to say Clayton/Ballard did not instigate or influence or have any part of this, is ludicrous and terribly disingenuous, and I don't care how honorable your SP might be. One has to do a hell of a lot of mental gymnastics to believe something as absurd as that.

CHURCH....JUST TELL THE TRUTH! Call a spade a spade and stop obfuscating facts.

And, I actually understand why the church would do such a thing. I think it was foolish. I think it was culty. But I understand. I'm just frustrated they are so dishonest about it.



Now, I'll take a break from the site for the rest of the day.



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Last edited by Anonymous on 23 Jul 2014, 11:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Dax
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by Dax » 23 Jul 2014, 11:41

DarkJedi, I believe that the top leadership were well aware and coordinated or at the very minimum "suggested" to Kate Kelly's local leaders that a disciplinary council was in order. After she was labeled a apostate and excommunicated the top knew that it would only be logical that local leaders would feel empowered and justified to go after other supporters at the ward/stake level. It is now open season on any woman that hints at feminist views. I do believe that the leadership were hoping to label gender issues as a apostate view point and it worked. Even women with moderate views and desire for change without ordination are backing away from the gender discussions for fear of loosing their recommends and being labeled an apostate. In turn women will teach their daughters to know their place and that questions about gender issues are "prideful and a potential sin". (Heard that in RS this last week)

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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by Curt Sunshine » 23 Jul 2014, 12:24

The situation with Kate and OW (and MS/JD) is different than a general purge encouraged by the top leadership. Those are two very, very different things.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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cwald
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by cwald » 23 Jul 2014, 12:34

I do not believe there is a general purge.

I think there is "border keeping" specifically directed towards OW and MS.... that is either coordinated or at least instigated and encouraged from the top ie Clayton/Ballard.

As Dax stated, those who support or are involved in either group, will now be more likely to be considered apostate by their local leaders and jeopardize losing their temple recommends. Which is exactly what happened, my experience three years ago. ...released from calling and TR revoked... and apparently it is starting all over again.

The church corp will throw up their hands and say we have nothing to do with it, it was all local leaders. ... and that, in my opinion, is terribly cruel and dishonest thing to do.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by DarkJedi » 23 Jul 2014, 12:37

Ray DeGraw wrote:The situation with Kate and OW (and MS/JD) is different than a general purge encouraged by the top leadership. Those are two very, very different things.
I agree, Ray. I don't doubt Kate Kelly's local leaders consulted with GAs - our SP indicated that it's appropriate for them to do so because of their high profile nature and because of their complexity. Such consultation does not a purge make. I live a long way from SLC (so did Kate), and there certainly is no evidence of any kind of purge here - and I do know some vocal members of the loyal opposition in our stake, including OW supporters. It would seem as though if there were hundreds of DCs going on in the Mormon Corridor the Tribune would have picked up on it by now. Again, a local leader's decision to take someone's TR or even hold a council does not indicate there is a purge directed by church headquarters.

Cwald, I am aware of your story, and it pains me that you went through such a thing. I sincerely feel for you. I think events like yours are part of why our SPs are being taught what they are being taught - and likewise why the Seventy are being taught how they are now being taught. My SP gets nowhere by lying to us about what he has been taught, he has no reason to do so, and doesn't even need to share most of what he shares. I think the GAs are actually being reigned in a bit by the Q15 (just my opinion, but it fits the evidence). I will point out that my SP did say it was the presidency of the Seventy they should discuss the more difficult issues with, not the AA and not a First or Second Quorum guy.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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cwald
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by cwald » 23 Jul 2014, 12:42

DarkJedi wrote:
Ray DeGraw wrote:The situation with Kate and OW (and MS/JD) is different than a general purge encouraged by the top leadership. Those are two very, very different things.
I agree, Ray. I don't doubt Kate Kelly's local leaders consulted with GAs - our SP indicated that it's appropriate for them to do so because of their high profile nature and because of their complexity. Such consultation does not a purge make. I live a long way from SLC (so did Kate), and there certainly is no evidence of any kind of purge here - and I do know some vocal members of the loyal opposition in our stake, including OW supporters. It would seem as though if there were hundreds of DCs going on in the Mormon Corridor the Tribune would have picked up on it by now. Again, a local leader's decision to take someone's TR or even hold a council does not indicate there is a purge directed by church headquarters.

Cwald, I am aware of your story, and it pains me that you went through such a thing. I sincerely feel for you. I think events like yours are part of why our SPs are being taught what they are being taught - and likewise why the Seventy are being taught how they are now being taught. My SP gets nowhere by lying to us about what he has been taught, he has no reason to do so, and doesn't even need to share most of what he shares. I think the GAs are actually being reigned in a bit by the Q15 (just my opinion, but it fits the evidence). I will point out that my SP did say it was the presidency of the Seventy they should discuss the more difficult issues with, not the AA and not a First or Second Quorum guy.
Ok. Fair enough.

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