Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

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DarkJedi
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Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by DarkJedi » 23 Jul 2014, 04:45

Recently in a leadership meeting our SP shared something he had been taught in a meeting of SPs where there was a member of the Seventy. He wanted us to be aware and to share where appropriate, and it was in light of the Kate Kelly excommunication. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I believe them when they say this, so here it is. The Seventy told them there is no purge underway. He said there was no direction from the top relating to Kate Kelly or anyone else, but that the presidency of the Seventy is available to SPs to consult about complex cases. The GAs will never tell the SP what to do, however, and will not attempt to influence the outcome of the council - it is a local matter. The Seventy said it is the church's stance that it is OK to question and even disagree, that the problem arises when one attempts to convert others to his or her way of thinking and/or attempts to gain a following and referred everyone to the statement by the FP on apostasy.

I know there are those who don't believe this, and I won't post it on the NOM site to spare myself the comments it would elicit there. My SP is a sincere believer in looking after the one and finding the lost sheep - he openly discusses ways to help those in faith crisis without using the term. I believe him and I believe the GAs when they say things like the above.
Last edited by DarkJedi on 24 Jul 2014, 04:51, edited 1 time in total.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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SunbeltRed
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by SunbeltRed » 23 Jul 2014, 05:28

I have heard the same from my SP. And my SP is similar to yours in he is more concerned for the one, and he is a good man, so I believe him as well.

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cwald
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by cwald » 23 Jul 2014, 06:01

You are right, I don't believe it.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by DarkJedi » 23 Jul 2014, 06:20

cwald wrote:You are right, I don't believe it.

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I knew you wouldn't, and it's OK to disagree. ;) I will say that I also believe individual GAs are just like the rest of, prone to faults. While I believe the Seventy who was speaking does believe what he taught, I am also open to the idea that some GAs might be tempted to try to influence the outcome of a DC - but I don't believe most would. I believe them when they say they is no concerted effort from the top to purge. I might point out here that John Dehlin did meet with his SP and has had no DC, and that we never saw anything official from Rock Waterman (who is an apostate anyway IMO) and he has not said anything about having had a DC - and I'm sure he would if he'd had one. I think Waterman was trying to jump on the bandwagon of attention, and the other two were coincidental.

Evidence of a purge I do not see, and the Spirit of Truth I have felt.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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nibbler
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by nibbler » 23 Jul 2014, 06:37

I'm one of those weirdos that leans toward thinking that the decision to excommunicate KK should be directed from the top. The ramifications of the decision reach far beyond the stake level.

I think "attempts to gain a following" is fairly obvious but where I truly get lost in all of this is "attempts to convert others to his or her way of thinking." That's kind of a grey area for me. A local leader could interpret vocalizing disagreement in SS as an attempt to convert others to their way of thinking. People on both sides of an issue might interpret the act of making a comment in class as an attempt to convert others to his or her way of thinking. The anti could view the faithful's comment as an attempt to convert others. The faithful could view the anti's comment as an attempt to convert others. It's very nebulous.

I might like to see it go further in being a bit more clear but the very fact that it's being said at all is a step in the right direction. Having a seventy say "there is no purge underway" might allow cooler heads to prevail where there was any doubt. Change takes time and this is a good first step.
If one dream dies, dream another dream. If you get knocked down, get back up and go again.
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cwald
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by cwald » 23 Jul 2014, 06:44

DarkJedi wrote:... He said there was no direction from the top relating to Kate Kelly or anyone else,... The GAs will never tell the SP what to do, however, and will not attempt to influence the outcome of the council - it is a local matter. ... I believe him and I believe the GAs when they say things like the above.

This is what I don't believe.

Even my TBM family think this is disingenuous rhetoric.

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SilentDawning
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by SilentDawning » 23 Jul 2014, 06:55

Taking what DJ heard at face value-- this is what I find a bit confusing about our church....

It is a very large, bureaucratic organization with policies upon policies and a general handbook of instructions that people generally follow very closely on most matters. Yet, there is so much local freedom on this one issue of discipline -- which is something that can help, but often can really cause pain for the members.

a) I am all for local freedom, but why is the church so free on the issue of discipline, while so tight on most of the other matters?

b) Why is the church so concerned with making sure everyone knows discipline is a local matter, when we have such a strong top-down culture? And I think most people EXPECT the inspired leaders at the top to guide the church?
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DarkJedi
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by DarkJedi » 23 Jul 2014, 07:44

nibbler wrote:I'm one of those weirdos that leans toward thinking that the decision to excommunicate KK should be directed from the top. The ramifications of the decision reach far beyond the stake level.

I think "attempts to gain a following" is fairly obvious but where I truly get lost in all of this is "attempts to convert others to his or her way of thinking." That's kind of a grey area for me. A local leader could interpret vocalizing disagreement in SS as an attempt to convert others to their way of thinking. People on both sides of an issue might interpret the act of making a comment in class as an attempt to convert others to his or her way of thinking. The anti could view the faithful's comment as an attempt to convert others. The faithful could view the anti's comment as an attempt to convert others. It's very nebulous.

I might like to see it go further in being a bit more clear but the very fact that it's being said at all is a step in the right direction. Having a seventy say "there is no purge underway" might allow cooler heads to prevail where there was any doubt. Change takes time and this is a good first step.
I was summarizing the comments, Nibbler. Perhaps a better way to have put it was attempting to convert others to your way of thinking AND trying to gain a following. The gist of the comments by the SP was that it is absolutely OK to have a differing opinion and it's even OK to share and discuss that opinion. In the discussion portion of the meeting relating to these comments, an example of a brother who spoke in SM was given - the guy supports OW and tearfully testified in the meeting that he did and that he felt sorry for Kate Kelly. No one there said a word about discipline for him - he did nothing more than share his opinion.

FWIW, for my part in the discussion I encouraged everyone to become familiar with the essays and followed up by sending links to each of them. I was once again surprised at how few priesthood leaders were familiar with them - the SP was, though, and encouraged the same.

And I don't disagree with you that perhaps the central leadership should perhaps take a bigger role n the more high profile cases. On the other hand, were it me coming before a DC, I'd really like it if it were my local leaders who I know and who know me and my family. While I do believe Kate Kelly should have been excommunicated (she met the criteria), I also believe a lesser discipline may have also sufficed - and I believe her lack of attendance influenced that.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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DarkJedi
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by DarkJedi » 23 Jul 2014, 07:53

SilentDawning wrote:Taking what DJ heard at face value-- this is what I find a bit confusing about our church....

It is a very large, bureaucratic organization with policies upon policies and a general handbook of instructions that people generally follow very closely on most matters. Yet, there is so much local freedom on this one issue of discipline -- which is something that can help, but often can really cause pain for the members.

a) I am all for local freedom, but why is the church so free on the issue of discipline, while so tight on most of the other matters?

b) Why is the church so concerned with making sure everyone knows discipline is a local matter, when we have such a strong top-down culture? And I think most people EXPECT the inspired leaders at the top to guide the church?
I agree with you SD that most people expect the top leaders to guide the church, and I think they do guide. I don't believe God expects them to micromanage or do anything beyond guide, however. This goes along with the adage that Catholicism teaches that the pope is infallible but the members don't believe it while the LDS church teaches the prophet is not infallible but the members don't believe it. FWIW, I'm not sure the pope or cardinals would have taken an active role with Kate Kelly, either.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Dax
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Re: Seventy: No purge underway, OK to disagree

Post by Dax » 23 Jul 2014, 10:40

Dark Jedi, perhaps the church is not "purging" in the excommunication since, but I know personally two women that have have had their temple recommends revoked due to private face book posts or liking the OW page. One does not even have a profile up but she has been released from her callings and will not be able to attend her daughter's wedding in September. So I'm sorry but this just feels like more lip service from the top along with a heavy dose of plausible deniability! "We won't intervine with local leaders desicions." Well isn't that great?!?! Love the double speak!

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