More LDS Bloggers getting the call (NYT Article)

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intothelight
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Re: More LDS Bloggers getting the call (NYT Article)

Post by intothelight » 21 Jun 2014, 16:35

I think we can say whatever we all want - and after those words get thought on for a while - it's often times good we say what is on our minds. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone can have an expectation to be able to publicly say whatever you want and then expect the church to allow you to continue claiming you are a member in good standing. They are entitled to free agency as much as we are.

You can be a "coward" :) like me and most people here - and use a pen name. And believe you me, I'm perfectly content being a coward. Or, you can choose to do it publicly, and accept the consequences. I'm not aware of any law of the universe that says consequences are required to be fair. Martin Luther spoke his mind and accepted the consequences, but so did Korihor. So did Joseph Smith for that matter.

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DarkJedi
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Re: More LDS Bloggers getting the call (NYT Article)

Post by DarkJedi » 21 Jun 2014, 16:50

hawkgrrrl wrote:DarkJedi - my local ward is so vastly superior to the reports I hear from others that I think either I am a huge optimist or my ward really is an outlier. I truly can't imagine this kind of crack down in my ward. Maybe at the stake level, which I really don't know.
I am like you Hawkgrrrl. I cannot imagine it in my ward or stake. I like to think my leaders are not all that exceptional, but perhaps I am wrong.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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DarkJedi
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Re: More LDS Bloggers getting the call (NYT Article)

Post by DarkJedi » 21 Jun 2014, 16:52

common twit wrote:As with most things with the church, I am quite confused. My very close friend who is a stake president, told me last month that the tone from HQ is one of working with people. Nine years ago, he said, HQ wanted SP to "discipline" the members. He said now they are supposed to work with the faithless and avoid church court. He commented on what a sharp contrast it hS been.
So, to see the church HQ now reversing confuses me.
I just thought I might share my little insight.
My SP has only been in place a few months, and I have only had a close relationship with him for roughly that same amount of time. But the message he gives us is the same as the one from your SP - he has made no secret, even to other members of the high council and to bishoprics, that I am there to help him work with the struggling members.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Roy
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Re: More LDS Bloggers getting the call (NYT Article)

Post by Roy » 22 Jun 2014, 09:30

Ray DeGraw wrote:Now, there might have been some direction to take a look at people who are actively working within OW. In other words, I can see a very focused effort on that organization (and, again, I can understand easily both sides of the discipline dilemma with OW),
I agree with this. It is possible that OW has been targeted so to speak. The actions of OW over the last few months have increased tensions on both sides. Then the letters to John & Kate arriving at roughly the same time touched off a proverbial firestorm. TBM DW is now seeing lots of this stuff in her Facebook feed mostly from other TBMs supposedly defending the church. She doesn't usually follow these topics but now is getting drawn into the conversation by people online. Just as many individuals are taking to the social media streets to defend (or criticize) the church - it makes sense that some who hold certain callings might feel that they might show their loyalty to the organization by cracking down on dissenters within their own sphere of influence. Thus we may (except for the OW issue) have a series of grass roots crack-down that are influencing each other.

It is difficult to say whether church leadership would approve of such actions. I imagine that some would and some wouldn't. It must be very difficult to get things done in an organization run by volunteers - especially when some of the things you might be trying to accomplish (tolerate/make room for diverse voices/interpretations) can strike at the heart of the motivation for many to serve (we have the one true gospel/message/priesthood/truth).
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

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"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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SilentDawning
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Re: More LDS Bloggers getting the call (NYT Article)

Post by SilentDawning » 22 Jun 2014, 09:47

Ray DeGraw wrote:Now, there might have been some direction to take a look at people who are actively working within OW. In other words, I can see a very focused effort on that organization (and, again, I can understand easily both sides of the discipline dilemma with OW),
If I can speak frankly on this, I've heard the argument that person can see both sides many times before. To me, it's a way of involving oneself in the conversation without necessarily taking a stand. For me, it's the first step in drawing conclusions about how to resolve the problem, or where an individual stands on an issue. Not the last step.

I'll tell you where I stand on this issue. Movements lose their edge when they are ignored. If the church wants to put the fire of OW out, then it should let them do their thing, and let the difficult of sustaining change take over and let the movement atrophy. By attacking the movement, the church only validates it as a viable force, creates martyrs, and fuels its fire. Personally, I feel even more alienated by the church now as threats of discipline are typical of church egocentrism that I see all around me. If they just left the OW people alone, I believe many of the volunteers would lose interest in OW and move on.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

Curt Sunshine
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Re: More LDS Bloggers getting the call (NYT Article)

Post by Curt Sunshine » 22 Jun 2014, 12:57

SD, I've said in multiple places online that I hope neither John nor Kate are excommunicated. That is my ideal, without qualification.

Moving away from an ideal, however, I really can see very solid arguments on each side - and that, to me, illustrates the complexity of each situation (that neither is so cut-and-dried that there is one simple, easy, obvious, objective right answer). It in no way means I won't take a stand, but it does mean I can understand those who take a different stand than I do - and, in some cases (not all), actually respect their rationale for taking a different stance than I do.

I think the absolute worst thing about these two cases, aside from the possibility at the personal level of excommunication itself, is that so many people ON BOTH SIDES of the discussion can't or won't try to understand the other side enough to grant that the other side actually has a reasonable argument - that so many people have gravitated to one extreme or the other and positioned that extreme as the only obvious answer, with corresponding verbal fisticuffs.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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cwald
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Re: More LDS Bloggers getting the call (NYT Article)

Post by cwald » 22 Jun 2014, 13:41

I personally can understand why the church would clamp down on the bloggernacle.

My problem, is I'm tired of the church blaming it all on the members/local leaders. The COB needs to take some responsibility and stop blaming everyone but the apostles and prophets, the guys who speak to and on behalf of God, for all the mistakes and pain that is being caused. Why is they are silent and will only speak through the PR department?

The PR stateswoman on RadioWest stated that she could not answer the questions and had no knowledge and couldn't speak on behalf of the church for many of the questions asked. Well, then who the can? The Prophet? Fine. Lets get some answers, some truth, and find out just what the church believes and their position on these issues.

is that really so much to ask from our leaders? Our church? Our community that we have built up and given 1000's of dollars and consecrated our time, money and talents.

Just some answers, some straight up answers without mental gymnastics and some honesty for a change.

Is that asking too much?
Church leaders are not asking members not to blog, and they are not attacking the rights of honest explorers of faith to have these conversations in the so-called Bloggernacle." Church Spokeswoman Ally Isom on KUER radio, June 16th

Okay, so these are Church spokespersons saying these things, but they're not the real Church Spokesperson, right? Only the President of the Church can actually speak for the Church. So where is he? Why is Church leadership at the top leaving my poor bishop to twist slowly in the wind?
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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SilentDawning
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Re: More LDS Bloggers getting the call (NYT Article)

Post by SilentDawning » 22 Jun 2014, 21:37

This subject of local versus central control of the blogging disciplinary councils and threats is coming up in multiple threads here on StayLDS.

I can only surmise that they don't want to appear to be starting a command-and-control ousting of the bloggers -- they want it to appear to be more grassroots in nature. Kind of like a local, uncoordinated September 6. There has been a lot of criticism of the top-down hierarchical nature of the church, and there has been movement toward a kinder, gentler church than we've seen in the past.

Perhaps they are trying to have their cake, and eat it to? Come down on the bloggers, while still appearing to be gentle and kind at the top?
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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SilentDawning
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Re: More LDS Bloggers getting the call (NYT Article)

Post by SilentDawning » 22 Jun 2014, 21:39

Ray DeGraw wrote:SD, I've said in multiple places online that I hope neither John nor Kate are excommunicated. That is my ideal, without qualification.

Moving away from an ideal, however, I really can see very solid arguments on each side - and that, to me, illustrates the complexity of each situation (that neither is so cut-and-dried that there is one simple, easy, obvious, objective right answer). It in no way means I won't take a stand, but it does mean I can understand those who take a different stand than I do - and, in some cases (not all), actually respect their rationale for taking a different stance than I do.

I think the absolute worst thing about these two cases, aside from the possibility at the personal level of excommunication itself, is that so many people ON BOTH SIDES of the discussion can't or won't try to understand the other side enough to grant that the other side actually has a reasonable argument - that so many people have gravitated to one extreme or the other and positioned that extreme as the only obvious answer, with corresponding verbal fisticuffs.
Thanks Ray -- where do you stand on this issue then? How would you like to see the situation resolved? For example, the outcomes of the meetings with the bloggers. change in the church (if any)?
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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SamBee
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Re: More LDS Bloggers getting the call (NYT Article)

Post by SamBee » 23 Jun 2014, 07:02

That's why many of us use pseudonyms.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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