Room for All in this Church

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
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DarkJedi
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Re: Room for All in this Church

Post by DarkJedi » 22 Jun 2014, 12:36

wayfarer wrote:
cwald wrote:"whether or not the june disciplinary courts for kate and john were coincidental, i am now hearing every day about more bishops seeking unsolicited meetings with women who have been publicly feminist. not just leaders, but rank and file members with views no different than mine. i so wish this were not the case. but it goes to show how high profile courts create an environment where local leaders and members feel empowered or obliged to "act" towards mormon feminists. a very difficult time."
It is a highly polarized moment. Absent clear leadership direction from the top, the situation at the local level among conservative leaders is "retrenchment". Others wisely are steering clear of the situation. I checked with my HC and executive secretary friends, and my stake is not taking any action. This seems to me that "Priesthood Roulette" is ruling the day.
I agree - our stake is also not taking any sorts of action and in fact seems to be trending toward - and quite focused on - working with people instead.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Curt Sunshine
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Re: Room for All in this Church

Post by Curt Sunshine » 22 Jun 2014, 12:41

In places where retrenchment and increased scrutiny are happening, we tend to hear about it. In cases where it is not happening, we tend not to hear about it. This creates a perceptual distortion that is easy to miss or misunderstand.

Is this a real issue that ought not be? Absolutely. Is it a sweeping movement and representative of the overall desire of the top leadership and the actions of most local leaders? I don't think so.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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wayfarer
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Re: Room for All in this Church

Post by wayfarer » 22 Jun 2014, 23:19

Ray DeGraw wrote: Is this a real issue that ought not be? Absolutely. Is it a sweeping movement and representative of the overall desire of the top leadership and the actions of most local leaders? I don't think so.
I am not sure I follow you ray. Either that or I am not sure I agree.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
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Re: Room for All in this Church

Post by Curt Sunshine » 23 Jun 2014, 04:18

I agree completely with the idea of the post and believe it is an issue that must be addressed in the Church. I just don't see any widespread crackdown on people who blog about controversial topics, for example, even on those whose positions don't match generalized doctrinal standards, like concerning gay marriage.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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cwald
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Re: Room for All in this Church

Post by cwald » 23 Jun 2014, 18:58

I think you are trying to hard to protect the church Ray.

Which, is okay, and perhaps admirable for this site. I don't blame you.

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  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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wayfarer
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Re: Room for All in this Church

Post by wayfarer » 24 Jun 2014, 10:07

at times like these, I am damn near done.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
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Minyan Man
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Re: Room for All in this Church

Post by Minyan Man » 24 Jun 2014, 10:28

wayfarer, please explain further. It looks like there is more going on here.

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Re: Room for All in this Church

Post by Curt Sunshine » 24 Jun 2014, 10:51

In this case, cwald, I am not trying to protect - although I appreciate the way you worded that overall comment. What I have written really is how I see things.

I have said all along that I see John's and Kate's cases as MUCH more complex than many people, on both sides, describe them - especially with the letter from her Bishop implying strongly that some of her statements about her interaction with him and other leaders have not been fully honest. (I have NO way to judge the accuracy of that claim, but it absolutely adds a degree of complexity to the case that is important.) I also agree in principle with the main message of this post - but I do NOT agree completely, since I don't believe there is room in ANY church or organization for "all". I want excommunication to be truly a last resort, which is why I am disappointed in the decision regarding Kate, but I do want it to be an option - especially in cases like Snuffer and Waterman.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Re: Room for All in this Church

Post by wayfarer » 29 Jun 2014, 14:52

mike,

A lot of this is about boundary maintenance: the church needs to set a limit to what level of dialogue is acceptable. From yesterday's statement by the FP and Q12, it is clear
First Presidency Statement June 28 2014 wrote:n God's plan for the happiness and eternal progression of His children, the blessings of His priesthood are equally available to men and women. Only men are ordained to serve in priesthood offices. All service in the Church has equal merit in the eyes of God. We express profound gratitude for the millions of Latter-day Saint women and men who willingly and effectively serve God and His children. Because of their faith and service, they have discovered that the Church is a place of spiritual nourishment and growth.

We understand that from time to time Church members will have questions about Church doctrine, history, or practice. Members are always free to ask such questions and earnestly seek greater understanding. We feel special concern, however, for members who distance themselves from Church doctrine or practice and, by advocacy, encourage others to follow them.

Simply asking questions has never constituted apostasy. Apostasy is repeatedly acting in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its faithful leaders, or persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching false doctrine.
Here is what this is saying to me:

1. Blessings of the priesthood are "equally" available to men and women, but only men are ordained to serve in priesthood offices. This is the answer to OrdainWomen's question, although I hardly think they'll be satisfied by it.

2. You can ask questions, but questioning is problematic. there is a difference.

3. Distancing yourself from Church doctrine or practice is problematic. This means expressing views on the internet that are not in harmony with the church teachings.

4. Advocacy is especially problematic. If your blog is popular, then this consists of 'advocacy'.

5. New rule: Clear, open and public opposition to either the church or its leaders is apostasy (this adds 'leaders', which may be interpreted as ANY leader)

6. Old rule: persisting in teaching false doctrine after being "counseled" is apostasy. This means if you post on the internet your beliefs, and the Bishop or Stake president tells you to stop, and you don't: you're in apostasy.

7. Old rule: not stated: Apostasy is mandatory cause for a church court.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
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Re: Room for All in this Church

Post by Curt Sunshine » 29 Jun 2014, 15:38

I think the focus on "teaching" false doctrine is a good one - meaning that merely expressing a different view (this is what I believe) is one thing, but "teaching" something (setting yourself up as the expert on a topic and trying to "educate" others to get them to agree with you and disagree with the church's leadership) is another thing entirely.

Others might see this as a rosy view, but I see this statement as looser than the older definition - since it uses the words "repeatedly" and "persisting", where, previously, a one-time issue could be labeled apostasy and lead to discipline. It still can, since not all local leaders will follow the spirit of this statement, but the statement at least says openly that questions and seeking to understand and public expression of different views are not apostasy.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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