My Rant - cleaning the building

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
Oneofmany
Posts: 49
Joined: 01 Nov 2013, 21:53

My Rant - cleaning the building

Post by Oneofmany » 10 May 2014, 20:01

*** warning this is a rant and nothing more read on if you want ***

What is it with people and cleaning the building? If 10 of us show up it takes less than 30 minutes, but, if 2 show up it takes hours. Why is it that it is always the same two that show up every week, do the others not use the building? Today, as we were showing up to clean there were a group of mid twenties leaving the building in basketball gear. There is also another group I know that uses the church for basketball, yet, the majority of them I have never seen help clean. I mean really guys... Most of it is just vacuuming, how hard is that, it isn't even like you are going to get dirty? Today, the group of 4-6 that cleaned the building, two of them were physically impaired and one of which was in a wheelchair. It isn't hard work! I just don't get it.

*** end of rant ***

Sorry about this, this happened this morning and has just kept getting worse all day, I hope this helps me let go of it.

Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 16466
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: My Rant - cleaning the building

Post by Curt Sunshine » 10 May 2014, 20:12

SilentDawning, do you want to respond to this one? :lol: :P

(Inside joke) :D
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

User avatar
hawkgrrrl
Site Admin
Posts: 3488
Joined: 22 Oct 2008, 16:27

Re: My Rant - cleaning the building

Post by hawkgrrrl » 10 May 2014, 21:01

It is maddening, I tell ya! But so it is.

User avatar
Cadence
Posts: 1149
Joined: 08 Dec 2009, 21:36

Re: My Rant - cleaning the building

Post by Cadence » 11 May 2014, 07:28

Hire the custodians back. It provided a job and kept the facilities nice.

There is this insidious idea kreeping in to the church. The church loves to hand out assignments. They tell you it is service. Sometimes it is but many times it is just cost savings for the church, free labor and all. The church needs to learn a little bit better about human behavior. People do no like to be told what to do. They want to feel like they are vested in the process and what they have to say matters. The church is totally inept in that regard. When Salt Lake takes all the money and gives back a pittance no one feels the need to invest their time since they have already paid. If the church does not want to pay for everything then it is going to have to turn the majority of responsibilities and expenses back to the stakes to manage. Like I said if you want people to take responsibility you have to give then control. It will never work the way it is. It is just human behavior. You can only guilt people into action for so long before it loses it effectiveness.
Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. Thomas A. Edison

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” Neil deGrasse Tyson

User avatar
DarkJedi
Posts: 6533
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: My Rant - cleaning the building

Post by DarkJedi » 11 May 2014, 08:55

I'm with Cadence on this one. I do understand what you're saying Oneofmany, and I'm sure the exact same thing happens in many a ward. But, frankly I have hardly used the building in over 10 years and I really liked having the custodians - even when they were cut back to part time and shared among buildings. There are three reasons I don't help: I haven't used the building, I don't like to be assigned to do anything and be told it's my responsibility (I might actually help if they asked me if I wanted to and on my own schedule), and I think they should see the error in their ways and hire back the custodians.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

User avatar
SamBee
Posts: 5334
Joined: 14 Mar 2010, 04:55

Re: My Rant - cleaning the building

Post by SamBee » 11 May 2014, 16:14

I don't clean up much as I can barely keep my own house clean.

This isn't a particularly church problem.

I agree, getting rid of paid cleaners was wrong. Better them than shopping malls.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Oneofmany
Posts: 49
Joined: 01 Nov 2013, 21:53

Re: My Rant - cleaning the building

Post by Oneofmany » 11 May 2014, 20:47

I agree I preferred having the custodians. That said, by saying that I haven't helped the situation at all and neither did my rant but it made me feel better. Are you, DJ and Cadence, proposing that we just stop cleaning?

I do have a follow up question, I wasn't around much before they did away such things but didn't there used to be some sort of building donation or something like that was requested over and above tithing that helped pay for custodians?

User avatar
Alex
Posts: 54
Joined: 11 Oct 2013, 08:42

Re: My Rant - cleaning the building

Post by Alex » 11 May 2014, 21:11

I enjoy cleaning the building, while I don't care much for cleaning my own home lol. All I can say is that I think it's a matter or priorities...there was one time I forgot I was "assigned" and didn't go, but if I had remembered would certainly have shown up. Wards that have an effective system to remind members have greater success, I think. It's a matter of cleaning not being high on the list for most people but I'd bet most don't mind.

I can see how cleaning the building is an issue for a lot of members. How it's a trigger for what's wrong with the Church and how it does things....like rescue visits is for me. But cleaning the building is something I actually like and don't mind. I like some physical labor and don't always get a lot because of my desk job, and in the scheme of things this isn't that bad. So when several people/families are assigned and not everyone shows up I think it's just a matter of them not minding the idea and willing to do it, but not important enough to put a reminder somewhere to do it.
I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them. (Words of Joseph Smith, p. 204 – May 18, 1843)

User avatar
DarkJedi
Posts: 6533
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: My Rant - cleaning the building

Post by DarkJedi » 12 May 2014, 03:26

Oneofmany wrote:I agree I preferred having the custodians. That said, by saying that I haven't helped the situation at all and neither did my rant but it made me feel better. Are you, DJ and Cadence, proposing that we just stop cleaning?

I do have a follow up question, I wasn't around much before they did away such things but didn't there used to be some sort of building donation or something like that was requested over and above tithing that helped pay for custodians?
I think a grass roots protest might be effective, but I don't think it would get off the ground.

There was a building fund at one time, as I recall it was abolished sometime in the mid 80s. It was like fast offering, a donation in addition to tithing. The money was used to pay the bills, although I don't recall if it was used for custodians - but at the time, each building had at least one full time custodian and some large buildings had more than one. The money was also used if you needed a new meeting house (but local funds supplemented church funds) - in that case they asked for more. Families and singles were often asked to commit to a certain amount to the fund, but we weren't asked if we were full building fund payers. Temples had building funds, also. It did seem like at one point my bishop did little else besides beg us for money, so it was great when the church eliminated the building fund and announced those things would be covered by tithing. We did still have full time custodians for several years after the change and then part time and shared custodians. This is also where the current ward budget system came from where attendance determines how much the ward gets back from Salt Lake for ward activities.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

User avatar
nibbler
Posts: 4049
Joined: 14 Nov 2013, 07:34
Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe

Re: My Rant - cleaning the building

Post by nibbler » 12 May 2014, 05:23

Some time ago I was in a unit that shared a building with two other wards. We'd rotate the responsibility, each unit would have the responsibility for a month then it would pass to a different ward. Our unit probably had about 25% of the people that the other units had so when it was our turn every family was guaranteed an opportunity to clean that month, some families did it multiple times. Meanwhile if you were in one of the other wards you might only clean the building once a year, if that... and of course being a smaller unit we were already doubled up on callings. ;)

I remember that inequality briefly getting to me but then I approached cleaning as an opportunity to serve and ended up missing it once I moved and was in a larger ward, the once per year variety. I was really disappointed that in the new ward you couldn't sign up to clean the building, you were just told when it was your turn. I get more out of service when I have the desire to do it, not when someone tells me to do it. Plus the sense of entitlement to your service rubs me a bit wrong. I'd much rather go in of my own volition.

Families that receive assistance from the church are encouraged to help with cleaning the building as often as they can. It's an opportunity for them to feel more empowered. I do wonder though... some of the people receiving assistance don't have jobs. That could be their job... or is it already, just doing away with the employment paperwork?

Why not a hybrid approach? The members clean the building but every 2 or 3 months some professional crew comes in to do a more thorough job of it. That way the members could be left with a small subset of the tasks that the building requires with the expectation that the pros will come in and handle the other. Is this not the way it's done currently?
Last edited by nibbler on 12 May 2014, 05:34, edited 2 times in total.
It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words, "And this too, shall pass away." How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction!
― Abraham Lincoln

Post Reply