Eternal families only in the Celestial Kingdom?

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SamBee
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Re: Eternal families only in the Celestial Kingdom?

Post by SamBee » 31 Jan 2014, 18:46

The family aspect of the CK makes little sense to me. In any given family, people have different degrees of development and righteousness. We're not all equally good, why would we go to the same place?

Also do we really want to be with ALL relatives? Many people have creepy uncles, batty aunts, combative siblings, abusive mothers, fathers who abandoned them etc - where do they fit in?
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Eternal families only in the Celestial Kingdom?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 01 Feb 2014, 10:58

If you really think about it, the Celestial Kingdom is described as a world populated by couples and the spirits they create.

Since I believe in a Council / Community of Gods model ("the Gods"), and no sexual procreation at that stage, the description above works for me.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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mercyngrace
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Re: Eternal families only in the Celestial Kingdom?

Post by mercyngrace » 01 Feb 2014, 13:10

Shawn wrote:From what I've read, it seems general authorities have taught there is no progression from one kingdom to another more than they have taught there is.
I'm okay with general authorities being wrong. :lol:

All kidding aside, Mormonism has a doctrinal "out" for teaching both positions. One is found in D&C 19 and the other in Jude.

In the first reference, the Lord explains that He sometimes uses hyperbole to reach hearts which might otherwise be unreachable.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
In Jude, the writer indicates that we teach the gospel to our audience (depending upon the state of their hearts). Some will be drawn by the Lord's lovingkindness. Others need to be scared, for their own safety.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Personally, I believe (as evidenced by my own experience and interactions), that how we attempt to "save" others with our preaching is often a better reflection of us preachers than of others as listeners. What that says about specific general authorities is left open to individual interpretation. ;) I choose to err on the side of mercy - for I find the argument infinitely more compelling.
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Eternal families only in the Celestial Kingdom?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 01 Feb 2014, 18:11

I agree, m&g - which is why I actually like that we have leaders at the top who see and preach differently than each other. We have Elder McConkies and we have Elder Uchtdorfs - or, to use Biblical examples, we have Paul and we have James (and we have John in a category all his own).

I want the type of diversity that will include at least one voice that speaks to each person - so, for example, I put up with Pres. Packer's sex rants as something some people need in order to hear just about anything from Elder Wirthlin.

I know that drives some people nuts (hearing apostles with whom they disagree strongly), but I want it as a way to reach some people who need those messages.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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nibbler
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Re: Eternal families only in the Celestial Kingdom?

Post by nibbler » 01 Feb 2014, 18:57

If people are eternal what's to stop them from regrouping as families in the afterlife? If two people want to be together as husband and wife what's to stop them? Will god put up his arms and prevent people from being together? Deny them their agency in doing so?

I find it interesting that the we are so wed to the notion of three degrees of glory... just because some guy said so. I don't see much benefit in trying to shoehorn beliefs about the afterlife into fitting in with the three degrees of glory, at least in the sense of taking a hard line on what is and what isn't a CK,TK,TK. I'm just kind of done with it all. Another thing that was said by some guy ;) :
Doctrine and Covenants 50:24 wrote:That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.
I don't have much to add about degrees and growth other than that.
SamBee wrote:The family aspect of the CK makes little sense to me. In any given family, people have different degrees of development and righteousness. We're not all equally good, why would we go to the same place?

Also do we really want to be with ALL relatives? Many people have creepy uncles, batty aunts, combative siblings, abusive mothers, fathers who abandoned them etc - where do they fit in?
I have felt the same way, but I'm in a rare state of mind today... hear me out on this. If there is eternal progression I want to go to a place where everyone is not equally good. That's why the world is such a great place to grow. I can be lifted up by following examples of people I observe that display admirable qualities. I can also be an example and help others. Helping others up from their station helps us to attain a higher station. If I was in a place where everyone was at the same level it would be more difficult to grow.

I do get separating out people that want to do harm to others, but that's a different kind of separation than segregating the good from the slightly better.

I get your comment about relatives as well. I think we all are in situations where "life would be easy if it weren't for <insert family member's name here>" but going back to the previous thought... having to "deal" with these people can be a source for growth. In fact I think that's one of the functions of families... to put us in these groups where blood ties obligate us to serve people that we might otherwise leave to the wolves.

On a personal level I struggle with a belief in an afterlife. I often see it as nothing more than wishful thinking or a coping mechanism to deal with the futility of life in the face of death.
He who sits alone, sleeps alone, and walks alone, who is strenuous and subdues himself alone, will find delight in the solitude of the forest.
— Buddha

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Eternal families only in the Celestial Kingdom?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 01 Feb 2014, 21:23

I think once the limitations of mortality are gone we will like more people than we do now. I think most people have good hearts - in many cases as good as they can be.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SamBee
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Re: Eternal families only in the Celestial Kingdom?

Post by SamBee » 03 Feb 2014, 14:25

My grandmother was an adultress... she also used to hit me. While I have done the work for her, it does raise all kinds of issues.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Momof3
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Re: Eternal families only in the Celestial Kingdom?

Post by Momof3 » 04 Feb 2014, 19:30

I have been thinking a lot about whether I will be able to be with my family after this life if we don't all "endure to the end" as faithful Mormons. I wonder if the 2nd article of faith applies: We believe that [we] will be punished for [our] own sins, not for Adam's transgression. We do suffer consequences of Adam's transgression, but we're not going to be eternally punished for it. However, according to a traditional way of thinking we could be kept out of the CK by the transgressions of a spouse (unless we accept a replacement spouse in the hereafter, I guess?). Any separation from loved ones could be viewed as a punishment, right? I guess if you believe in hell at all then there are surely people you love who are not going to be there, and if not being with them is a punishment, you're going to be punished for their transgressions.

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Orson
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Re: Eternal families only in the Celestial Kingdom?

Post by Orson » 05 Feb 2014, 08:42

Yes Momof3, it does get confusing - and there is so much that we just can't know in this life. After much thought I have come to rely on the concept of God as overflowing with love. We stop our own progression in multiple ways and He is the one to urge us to continue. I have to imagine a next life where we have at least as much freedom and opportunity as we do in this life. We can choose to progress, or we can sit back and limit our accomplishments. If we want to be near someone we are free to make that move, but physical location is the easy part -- becoming near emotionally can be a much bigger challenge. We are all in different places emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, etc. We are all (hopefully) progressing in knowledge and wisdom but no two people reside at exactly the same point. The idea that we will only be with those of our same level or "kingdom" is symbolic to me of this invisible separation that I feel even today.
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I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.

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