Mormonism, if understood, is Universalism

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mackay11
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Mormonism, if understood, is Universalism

Post by mackay11 » 10 Aug 2013, 18:24

I am rapidly becoming a true Universalist. I discovered a whole load of quotes this morning that make this all the more enjoyable.

I'm dashing off to church now so can't clean up the formatting. I'll be back later and will add them all into the quotes thread.
"We have come not to take away from you the truth and virtue you possess. We have come not to find fault with you nor to criticize you. We have not come here to berate you. … Keep all the good that you have, and let us bring to you more good.” President George Albert Smith, quoted in Sharing the Gospel with Others, comp. Preston Nibley (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1948), 12-13; italics added.
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/a ... the-church"

"The inquiry is frequently made of me, 'Wherein do you differ from others in your religious views?' In reality and essence we do not differ so far in our religious views, but that we could all drink into one principle of love. One of the grand fundamental principles of ‘Mormonism’ is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.” Joseph Smith, quoted in History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 2nded. (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1949), 5:499.
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/a ... the-church"

"...we claim that God’s inspiration is not limited to the Latter-day Saints.""
James E. Faust, “Communion with the Holy Spirit,” Ensign, Mar 2002, 2–7
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?l ... 82620aRCRD"

"We believe there is a spiritual influence that emanates from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space. (See D&C 88:12.) All men share an inheritance of divine light. God operates among his children in all nations, and those who seek God are entitled to further light and knowledge, regardless of their race, nationality, or cultural traditions.""
Howard W. Hunter http://www.lds.org/general-conference/p ... h?lang=eng"

" “[God] is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work, stupendous, magnificent, and altogether too arduous for this little handful of Saints to accomplish by and of themselves. …All down the ages men bearing the authority of the Holy Priesthood—patriarchs, prophets, apostles and others, have officiated in the name of the Lord, doing the things that he required of them; and outside the pale of their activities other good and great men, not bearing the Priesthood, but possessing profundity of thought, great wisdom, and a desire to uplift their fellows, have been sent by the Almighty into many nations, to give them, not the fulness of the Gospel, but that portion of truth that they were able to receive and wisely use.” (In Conference Report, Apr. 1921, pp. 32–33.)
Elder Orson F. Whitney, (In Conference Report, Apr. 1921, pp. 32–33.)
Quoted by Howard W. Hunter http://www.lds.org/general-conference/p ... h?lang=eng"

"The question submitted to me was, ""Is the Catholic church the church here referred to--the church of the devil ? ....
“Well,” said I, in answer, “I would not like to take that position, because it would leave me with a lot of churches on my hands that I might not then be able to classify.” So far as the Catholic church is concerned, I believe that there is just as much truth, nay, personally I believe it has retained even more truth than other divisions of so-called Christendom; and there is just as much virtue, and I am sure there is more strength in the Roman Catholic church than there is in Protestant Christendom.
I would not like, therefore, to designate the Catholic church as the church of the devil. Neither would I like to designate any one or all of the various divisions and subdivisions of Protestant Christendom combined as such church; nor the Greek Catholic church; nor the Buddhist sects; nor the followers of Confucius; nor the followers of Mohammed; nor would I like to designate even the societies formed by deists and atheists as constituting the church of the devil. The Book of Mormon text ought to be read in connection with its context -- with the chapter that precedes it and the remaining portions of the chapter in which it is found -- then, I think, those who study it in that manner will be forced to the conclusion that the Prophet here has in mind no particular church, no particular division of Christendom.""
B. H. Roberts
Defense of the Faith and the Saints, Vol.1, pp. 26-34
http://emp.byui.edu/WightmanG/Bom_121/C ... _Lamb.html"

"In the message of the gospel, the entire human race is one family descended from a single God. …
“Every person is a spiritual child of God.
“In this gospel view there is no room for a contracted, narrow, or prejudicial view. …
“There is no underlying excuse for smugness, arrogance, or pride. …
ELDER JOSEPH B. WIRTHLIN, Mar 1993
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/03/the-l ... e?lang=eng"

"7 Why should I desire that I were an angel, that I could speak unto all the ends of the earth?
8 For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true.
Alma the Younger
Alma 29
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/29?lang=eng"

"We believe that most religious leaders and followers are sincere believers who love God and understand and serve him to the best of their abilities. We are indebted to the men and women who kept the light of faith and learning alive through the centuries to the present day... We honor them as servants of God.""
DALLIN H. OAKS April 1995
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... n?lang=eng"

"ndividual orientation to the Church of the Lamb or to the great and abominable church is not by membership but by loyalty. Just as there Latter-day Saints who belong to the great and abominable church because of their loyalty to Satan and his life-style, so there are members of other churches who belong to the Lamb because of their loyalty to him and his life-style. Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records.”
Stephen E. Robinson, “Warring against the Saints of God,” Ensign, Jan 1988, 34.
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/warri ... d?lang=eng"

"We must understand however that not everyone is going to accept our doctrine of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. For the most part, our neighbors not of our faith are good, honorable people-every bit as good and honorable as we strive to be. They care about their families, just like we do. They want to make the world a better place, just like we do. They are kind and loving and generous and faithful, just like we seek to be.”
Elder M. Russell Ballard
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... n?lang=eng"


Cheers :)

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Mormonism, if understood, is Universalism

Post by Curt Sunshine » 10 Aug 2013, 19:07

I love the food in that part of the cafeteria, so I eat and cook there as often as I can.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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mackay11
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Mormonism, if understood, is Universalism

Post by mackay11 » 10 Aug 2013, 19:29

Ray Degraw wrote:I love the food in that part of the cafeteria, so I eat and cook there as often as I can.
Indeed. I'm coming to realise that the quotes of past leaders tend to cover almost every perspective available.

But I appreciate the availability of a range of perspectives in Mormonism. My 'yes' to a belief in prophets and the restoration may be very different to another members, but that doesn't make me or them wrong.

Truth is only useful if it leads to more goodness... or godliness.

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cwald
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Re: Mormonism, if understood, is Universalism

Post by cwald » 10 Aug 2013, 22:14

I like what you are saying Mackey. BUT...If the LDS Church is truly a universal movement, the current membership and leaders need to repent...because the way we practice today is far from universal.

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  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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cwald
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Re: Mormonism, if understood, is Universalism

Post by cwald » 10 Aug 2013, 22:16

Or is it only universal when dealing with non members? That we are pretty good with.

It's the apostates and heretics that are going to hell.

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Last edited by Anonymous on 11 Aug 2013, 09:31, edited 1 time in total.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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mackay11
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Mormonism, if understood, is Universalism

Post by mackay11 » 11 Aug 2013, 03:04

cwald wrote:Or is it only universal when dealing with non members? That we sui pretty good with.

It's the apostates and heretics that are going to hell.

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In the unit I'm in I make sure people know that I believe that my good lady wife's decision to leave the church lead to her taking a forward step. That she is still on the path to godliness, albeit using a different vehicle to travel on it.

There's no talk of heretics going to hell in a hand basket without a quick rebuttal from me. That's what my quotes list is for. They can argue with me, I'm nobody. They can't argue with their prophets, seers and revelators.

FiguringItOut
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Re: Mormonism, if understood, is Universalism

Post by FiguringItOut » 11 Aug 2013, 07:37

Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records.”
Stephen E. Robinson, “Warring against the Saints of God,” Ensign, Jan 1988, 34.
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/warri ... d?lang=eng"
I love, love, love these quotes. Thanks for posting them! It makes much more sense to me that God requires us to be true to what we believe is truth, rather than be true to one correct path...especially if you accept the idea that we are living in a veiled world. How could God expect more? What I struggle with...even though these incredible quotes can be found from GA's of the church, why doesn't the every day membership support this type of thinking? I wonder if it is because we can also find a monster stash of quotes from GA's that say the opposite: this is the one true path, this is the true way to happiness...(black and white thinking).

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wayfarer
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Re: Mormonism, if understood, is Universalism

Post by wayfarer » 11 Aug 2013, 08:08

mackay11 wrote:I am rapidly becoming a true Universalist. I discovered a whole load of quotes this morning that make this all the more enjoyable.

I'm dashing off to church now so can't clean up the formatting. I'll be back later and will add them all into the quotes thread.

Cheers :)
here, here!

If we select from the broad spectrum of thinking in the Church over time, we can find good stuff to anchor on. The challenge, as cwald points out, is that there is also a very exclusive sense within the church and most of its leaders that doesn't embrace universalism. I am ok with that.
cwald wrote:Or is it only universal when dealing with non members? That we sui pretty good with.

It's the apostates and heretics that are going to hell.
well, if we embrace the idea that hell is the telestial kingdom, then...hey, not so bad...
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
My seat in the bloggernacle: http://wayfaringfool.blogspot.com

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mackay11
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Mormonism, if understood, is Universalism

Post by mackay11 » 11 Aug 2013, 10:35

Here's what we teach (even in our canon):

1) We do not have all truth
2) Other people are taught by God in different ways
3) We have errors in our canon and doctrine caused by human imperfection.

Scriptural sources:

1) 9th Article of Faith "...we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things..."
D&C 93:18-20 "And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record... therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace."

2) Alma 29:7 "Why should I desire that I were an angel, that I could speak unto all the ends of the earth? (8) For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true."
3 Nep 16:1-3 "...I have other sheep, which are not of this land... they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd..."

3) 2 Nephi 33:4 "...And the words which I have written in weakness will be made strong unto them; for it persuadeth them to do good."
2 Nephi 3:21 "...and the weakness of their words will I make strong in their faith..."
Book of Mormon Title Page: "And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men..."
D&C 1:34 "...these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language..."

It's there in the scriptures. If people chose to ignore then it's a shame.

Point 3 also teaches me an important principle: It is more important that scripture leads to doing more good than it is proven right. Or, I want scripture that can correct (me and my course in life) more than I want scripture that is perfectly correct (I.e. technically accurate).

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mackay11
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Mormonism, if understood, is Universalism

Post by mackay11 » 11 Aug 2013, 10:42

FiguringItOut wrote:
Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records.”
Stephen E. Robinson, “Warring against the Saints of God,” Ensign, Jan 1988, 34.
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/warri ... d?lang=eng"
I love, love, love these quotes. Thanks for posting them! It makes much more sense to me that God requires us to be true to what we believe is truth, rather than be true to one correct path...especially if you accept the idea that we are living in a veiled world. How could God expect more? What I struggle with...even though these incredible quotes can be found from GA's of the church, why doesn't the every day membership support this type of thinking? I wonder if it is because we can also find a monster stash of quotes from GA's that say the opposite: this is the one true path, this is the true way to happiness...(black and white thinking).
I think people feel safety in certainty. And it's easier to feel certain when you believe you are the most "right" person.

It's a shame and I wish that the leadership would do more to reduce this attitude.

Having said that, the church is moving in that direction. It is becoming more open and inclusive. I would imagine certain pockets (or bubbles) will take longer to catch up. But the content of the LDS newsroom and the talks of people like Elder Uchtdorf and the recent Elder Holland one give me support.

I've recently been carefully and respectfully sharing my perspectives with other members and I've not been getting a negative reaction.

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