What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

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Heber13
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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by Heber13 » 18 Sep 2012, 13:54

Featherina wrote:I realize much of it is up to me being open - both in real life & online.
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Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 30 Aug 2016, 12:23

Bumping up this post and thread, since LH asked about the same topic.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by Gerald » 30 Aug 2016, 14:00

I do take a peek at NOM from time to time but I don't ever post there. It's an interesting place to get the perspective of the disaffected. But I have to say, it is a rather negative place at times. So I scamper back to StayLDS where people are just a little more positive. StayLDS works for me but I can see that for many, the NOM forum is where they need to be.

Ultimately, I am interested in exploring my faith in God and my commitment to the LDS Church. I'm not interested in rejecting either at this time. I don't think I could do that at NOM.
So through the dusk of dead, blank-legended And unremunerative years we search to get where life begins, and still we groan because we do not find the living spark where no spark ever was; and thus we die, still searching, like poor old astronomers who totter off to bed and go to sleep, to dream of untriangulated stars.
---Edwin Arlington Robinson---

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Katzpur
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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by Katzpur » 30 Aug 2016, 21:39

Just my two cents...

I haven't spent much time on NOM, but to me it seems to be for people looking for that little extra push the need to leave the Church. I'm not looking for reasons to leave, but for reasons to stay. I don't post here a great deal, and don't even lurk all that often. Mostly, I stop by when I'm feeling frustrated with the institutional Church and need to know I'm not alone. Here, though, I find encouragement and more of a positive vibe. Maybe NOM serves a good purpose for some people, but it's definitely not where I'd suggest people go if they're already struggling. If they've left and left angry, it might be a good place to vent, but that's definitely not where I am or ever hope to be. So, thank you, StayLDS, for being here for people like me.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." ~Rudyard Kipling ~

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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by Ann » 31 Aug 2016, 05:58

I would love to see people with the StayLDS style (for lack of a better word) at NOM. I don't participate much there because it's an angrier place that I've referred to as StuckLDS. But there are some very good, fair and knowledgable posters. When you figure out who you like, rummaging around in early threads is interesting. Depending on where you live, and because of its size, NOM also seems to offer a much higher chance of regular meet ups with like-minded people.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by LookingHard » 31 Aug 2016, 11:08

Thanks Ray for the bump of this old thread. It was just what I was looking for. I do think the phpBB software format isn't good for keeping track of some really good threads. If it were not for some like you that keep some of the history in your head, this would be not much more than a group stream of conscience diary. That isn't a bad thing, but it isn't as helpful as having a voted on FAQ section for newbies.

I enjoy the heck out of this site and the wisdom that I feel I can tap into. I GREATLY appreciate each of you that take the time to reply to my questions and others. You have all helped me immensely.

I do feel at times that I am not a perfect fit here lately. I am not fishing for some, "oh we love you" replies. I feel plenty welcome and accepted here. Just as I start to distance myself a bit from church activity. In general I am planning on only attending most sacrament meetings, mainly for my wife, but also a bit to stay connected with friends. So I just don't feel I am trying really to "StayLDS". If my wife were to suddenly have a FC and eventually say, "I am out of here" I don't see myself really spending all that much time back in an LDS chapel.

So a few items I saw on this thread:
Brian Johnston wrote:NOM = people who want/need to stay positively engaged with the Church, but don’t believe anymore.
StayLDS = people who lost faith, but want to believe again in the LDS Church
Hmmm. I think I am closer to the NOM description.
someone else said wrote:NOM says, "I'm LDS affiliated, but things just ain't the same anymore."
StayLDS says, "Things just ain't the same anymore, but I will stay LDS."
Not sure which side of this I would land on. Probably more "Things are not the same any more, but I am not running away from being LDS and want to stay loosely associated with my ward."
Brian Johnston wrote:StayLDS is more geared towards people that are largely done with being angry and hurt, who have satisfied some needs to tear everything apart and see how it ticks (this is a positive experience IMO, so don't read as negative), and who make the decision to move into a new phase of believing and faith (not all go that route). I don't think NOM supports the group I just described. They can't so easily. They have a very important but different mission.
I certainly would say I am more on the StayLDS side on this.

I did go look at NOM a bit and I do get a feeling of a lot more angst and anger. It seems that StayLDS is just a bit more "mature" and slow to come to a conclusion and only after really thinking about all angles first. I do like that. I for one am not at a point of saying that there is anything wrong with others believing in the validity of the church's narative, but I just can't say I do. Who knows what will change and maybe I will desire like others to become more active after a bit of time of backing off a bit.

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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by mom3 » 31 Aug 2016, 12:38

It's also important to note that NOM has new administrators. The admin and moderator team of a decade ago is gone. Some because they left, others just got too busy elsewhere. Just like wards or neighborhoods, leadership/social roulette takes over. What may have been moderated one way years ago, is different today. My husband, who is a no-Mo, was a massive NOM-mer. About three years ago he backed off. He felt the direction it was taking didn't help him. He won't be a returning LDS-er in any format, but the intense negativity was more than he wanted in his day. (This is not a criticism of anyone on NOM- Just an observation of change).

Many of the admins and moderators that started here are still connected to it. That helps keep it stable.

Also - the past 3 years have been ugly on a LDS cultural front and NOM is a great rage place (that is a no judgement statement). Over here we are a discussion group.Some the very same things tick us off, hurt our hearts, blow our minds. Yes we each vent a bit, but raging doesn't seem to be a personal style of most of us. We want to think, consider, process. Not everyone here is a "STAYER". Many have left. Hopefully it was a calmer transition.

In short, it's a temperament.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by DarkJedi » 31 Aug 2016, 12:44

I sometimes visit the NOM forum and occasionally post there. The difference I see is that most people there seem to be staying because they feel like they have to and that there's no way out. That is, their spouses and/or other family members are faithful LDS and leaving would hurt them and their relationships. I also see them as more wanting the church to change instead of changing themselves. And of course, there's always the anger and negativity one can see there, and I frankly don't like that they seem to celebrate people leaving the church. I don't think it's necessarily bad for some people to leave the church, and for some it really is the best thing - but not necessarily to be lauded and congratulated the way I often see it done there. I encountered the NOM site long before I encountered StayLDS, but it wasn't for me at that point in my journey and isn't now, either. I like our discussion here much better, and unlike NOM we are rarely derided for a faithful point of view here. In my view StayLDS is for people who want to stay, NOM is for people who feel like they have to stay.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Heber13
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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by Heber13 » 31 Aug 2016, 13:49

Thanks for your honest posts, LH.

In some ways...I see different approaches, but some similar goals...just different styles. Some people here at this site don't believe but want to stay and learn to nuance words and meanings. Some people are really trying to have new meaning to things, and see it from different perspectives, can hold on to belief in things, even if they don't see it the same as before.

It does seem that it takes some effort to nuance it and go slow and look for meaning and symbolism and try to stand up for yourself at church as the ugly duck.

Some people just don't want that...it doesn't work for them. I respect the NOM site and how they make it easier to just be blunt and call it like you see it. No nuance needed. But that doesn't work for some people because it leads to more negative venting without strategies to look for faithful ways to stay positive about the church and the leaders.

So...I think people in both sites can believe, disbelieve, or redefine belief. The sites just seem to have different styles that work for different people.

I would say I go through different phases, many times more positive tone, many times needing a break. It goes back and forth.

And also...."oh we love you"!! Your contributions help me and I learn from your posts. THanks man.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by Katzpur » 31 Aug 2016, 19:32

DarkJedi wrote:I sometimes visit the NOM forum and occasionally post there. The difference I see is that most people there seem to be staying because they feel like they have to and that there's no way out. That is, their spouses and/or other family members are faithful LDS and leaving would hurt them and their relationships. I also see them as more wanting the church to change instead of changing themselves. And of course, there's always the anger and negativity one can see there, and I frankly don't like that they seem to celebrate people leaving the church. I don't think it's necessarily bad for some people to leave the church, and for some it really is the best thing - but not necessarily to be lauded and congratulated the way I often see it done there. I encountered the NOM site long before I encountered StayLDS, but it wasn't for me at that point in my journey and isn't now, either. I like our discussion here much better, and unlike NOM we are rarely derided for a faithful point of view here. In my view StayLDS is for people who want to stay, NOM is for people who feel like they have to stay.
An absolutely perfect summary, in my opinion!
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." ~Rudyard Kipling ~

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