What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

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Curt Sunshine
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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 Sep 2012, 09:39

If there was such a thing as "simple truth" in matters of religion, Bruce, there wouldn't need to be sites that pursue it exclusively - or so many sites that actually are trying to pursue "simple truth" and, therefore, missing the mark completely, imo.

Just saying.
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Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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greenapples
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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by greenapples » 12 Sep 2012, 14:55

Forgotten_Charity wrote:The differnce to me was the general attitude and positive as well as critical thinking versus just mostly venting. Much
Ike a job, do you focus on the negative, positive or both? Do you help your coworkers with their job to help manage their stress or do you just complain along with them? The differnce is attitude. One that I love as I see it as unhealthy to dwell in negativity but see the good and the bad and possibly ideas about how to turn the bad into good.

We have our share of venting here too though. I really don't see NOM as being pure negativity towards the church. There is good fun and loving humor over there at NOM. If NOM was just a place to vent and only to vent it would be a ghost town.

I recall visiting View From the Foyer. The site died. It was a venting website. Everyone had vented.

The website has since been reborn but it now has a different look and a different name.

http://www.furtherlightandknowledge.net/

If the old attitude was reborn with this site then I assure you it will die.

NOM will remain though because it is not all about venting. StayLds will also remain because the site encourages staying LDS.

:mrgreen:
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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by wayfarer » 14 Sep 2012, 13:14

Bruce in Montana wrote:Gosh....

I just want to know the truth. And the truth is not relative. God is, or he isn't.

If my search leads me closer to the corporate church or mormonism in general...great.....if it becomes apparent that things are false....great.

What I'm not interested in is apologies, cover-ups, and ignoring facts......life is too short for me to spend it with my head in the sand.

Frankly, I really haven't found a site that is dedicated to that end. It seems everyone has an agenda other than simple truth.
Wouldn't the existence of god depend upon the definition? Truth is at least relative to how we define things.

"God is the ground of being" - Paul Tillich
"I am the Way" - Jesus Christ
"Ye are Gods" - the Psalmist to judges.
"God is a man" - Joseph Smith.

If you don't define the term, then there is no basis for which I can declare 'truth'. If I am forced to answer "Yes or No" the question, "Is there a god", I could answer "Yes" or "no", and mean exactly the same thing, and be completely truthful.

As well, there are many things for which an objective answer is not possible. Did we pre-exist? Does our consciousness persist after death? -- However unlikely these things may seem -- the truth eludes us. There is no way of knowing. So if you want the simple truth of these things, you'll have to wait and see...
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by greenapples » 14 Sep 2012, 18:17

Well I personally feel that we have some form of consciousness for reasons that I have had an out of body experience after I fell a great distance and hit my head on a log. I saw a birds eye view of myself. I saw the sun and strangely it looked dim. I also saw bright rings that were brighter than the sun. I did not see a messenger to take me away some place else as I have heard in other stories. I had no control as to where I floated. Next thing I know it felt as though a whirl wind had taken me. I began to spin downwards until I fell right back into my body.

However this is my experience and not yours. You would have to take my word for it.

To the rest of your questions it is like the chicken or the egg question. Which came first the chicken or the egg? We honestly don't know.
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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by RagDollSallyUT » 17 Sep 2012, 11:41

So I checked out NOM, did some postings and even went to a BBQ. I can make some general judgement but it comes with the disclaimer that I am speaking in generalities and there are lots of variations within each. Not all NOMs are one way or the other and not all at StayLDS are, remember as in the church there are nuances, there are here too and anywhere you find people. Also I did a very small "sampling" so my interpretations may not be completely accurate.

The NOM group seems to be more about the breaking away part, the venting and the questioning. Maybe they are more of the Fowlers' stage 4. Many are outright rebellious for rebellious sake, and many are even anti and no real desire to "come back" or really even move forward. Many view mormonism as part of their past, maybe even shamefully. There is a place for all of that, but while some want to move past it, probably a good percentage are content to stay there is that state. The nice thing about the NOM group is they are HUGE. If you want to actually meet some real life people in your area, that is possible. In fact they have a voluntary registry that you can look up where all whoever answered the poll are located. Also, because they are a huge group, there are more brains to pick. I learned some good and interesting things in both places. Overall I would say if I had a question that needed answers, I would probably post to both and see what each comes back with. All the bits of knowledge are helpful- sometimes the more sources the better. But if I wanted support in making my beliefs work in the LDS context, I would post here. They are also a good support for those who just crashed into reality and in dealing with all of the anger and confusion that comes with that.

Here, it seems to be more focused on the repair part... the putting the pieces back together, moving into stage 5 of at least thinking in that general direction. This seems to fit my personal needs more, really. My focus at this point is to take apart the puzzle of each and every thing I was taught and believed, examine what I want to keep and which parts should be improved or replaced and build my own connection to truth. I don't think NOM is worse or better but slightly different focus and may meet different needs at different times. Probably most "disaffected" mormons would find some things they need in both places.

I do have to appreciate everyone's respect and non-judgement here. I think this is a place of healing. Sometimes healing hurts. Thanks to all who contribute.
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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by cwald » 17 Sep 2012, 20:35

I went to NOM when I was very frustrated with the church organization and i wanted to vent or when I'm feeling very negative and down towards the church.

I went to staylds when I wanted to discuss deep theological issues I have with the church.

I get pissy here when I see apologetic, mental gymnastics, and irrational comments defending the institution. I get pissy at NOM when atheist get on and boast about their belief and belittle those who don't share them...and try to control the board. I also get bothered by the number of NOMs who still post, that are no longer LDS and are vocal and proselyte others about the need to get out. Don't understand how those messages meet the goals of the New Order Mormon.

As of right now, I don't really feel like either board is fitting my needs at this time. I would like to find a "positive" post mormon board, someplace that will not contaminate my spiritual energy with bitterness and anger. (I have plenty of that already.)

I will probably stick around here for awhile, as long as I can remain positive and contribute to the goals of the board...mostly because I will not let the church off the hook by resigning. If they don't want me, they will have to kick me out. And, of course, all my family is die-hard Mormon and I will never be able to fully disengage from the religion or the culture, and I need to practice, and understand how to communicate with LDS family members without being over the top and terribly offensive.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by greenapples » 17 Sep 2012, 23:28

cwald wrote: I get pissy at NOM when atheist get on and boast about their belief and belittle those who don't share them...and try to control the board. I also get bothered by the number of NOMs who still post, that are no longer LDS and are vocal and proselyte others about the need to get out. Don't understand how those messages meet the goals of the New Order Mormon.
This is exactly why I came to StayLDS. I think when I first started posting at NOM most of the active posts were by those who had resigned from the church and strongly considered themselves a blunt atheist.

I began posting again at NOM a couple years later because there seemed to be a more equal conversation among those who are still somewhat active and try to stay in VS. those who are pretty much leaving or have already left the church.
cwald wrote: As of right now, I don't really feel like either board is fitting my needs at this time. I would like to find a "positive" post mormon board, someplace that will not contaminate my spiritual energy with bitterness and anger. (I have plenty of that already.)
To be honest I don't really feel like either board has ever truly fulfilled all my needs. I think both boards served a purpose for me and I got a little something out of it. I currently have yet to break 100 posts on either website. I think when the time comes that I do reach 100 posts on either site I will probably take a large break from posting and might even be completely done with posting.

I feel like the same topics have been recycled over and over again on both NOM and StayLDS. I really only add my two cents on the topics that I am most interested in. If the same topic comes up in a different thread I don't really feel inclined to write something similar.

When it comes to my personal religion/spiritual belief system I feel like there are so many choices put up in front of me. I do not feel like there is a right or wrong answer. I can remain in the church or I can just go inactive or leave completely.

Since I am not married I really don't feel like I need to remain or not remain for the sake of marriage. It all really depends on what I want to do.

cwald good luck on your search for a positive post Mormon board. I have never joined an official post Mormon board. The ones that I have chosen to lurk on seem to be negative rants and venting.

I feel like the only way you could find such a site is if you made one yourself. Make it a strict rule that you can't rant or vent about the church. Only allow topics or stories of what people are doing now that they are out of the church. Allow suggestions of alternative beliefs but to keep it equal and open minded. Make it a place where positive conversation flows.

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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 18 Sep 2012, 12:59

To me these sites basically follow along with the basic stages of grief. The apologetic sites made me feel better when I was in the denial and bargaining stages. NOM, Flak, RfM, etc. made me feel better when I was in more of an anger stage. But StayLDS was more about acceptance of the reality of the situation. This kind of acceptance does not mean you have to agree with the way the Church is but it is more about coming to terms with it and getting over it to some extent. So I see NOM as mostly providing validation that you are not alone and there are others that feel the same disappointment and frustration with the Church more than StayLDS which is more about dealing with the Church the way it is as well as possible.

Another difference is that StayLDS is moderated more strictly and is slightly harder to set up a new account for and it also has fewer people regularly posting but I'm not sure that is such a bad thing overall with some of the trolls that repeatedly post and create multiple accounts at NOM. At this point I feel like I have already sorted out all my basic beliefs and don't expect them to change much but I still like to talk about these ideas sometimes. Also, It seems like many of the old timers here are still active in the Church but at NOM a higher percentage are ex-Mormon atheists that are cynical about any religious beliefs in general. At NOM I started to feel like I had heard it all 100 times before but here SilentDawning, Ray, Roy, silentstruggle, and others frequently come up with new questions and ideas I hadn't ever thought of before.
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Featherina

Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by Featherina » 18 Sep 2012, 13:14

DevilsAdvocate wrote:...NOM, Flak, RfM, etc. made me feel better when I was in more of an anger stage. But StayLDS was more about acceptance of the reality of the situation...
I see it that way too.
I haven't posted on NOM for a while & was banned for BS (IMO), so maybe my view is slanted.
But it seems that NOM has another agenda... it's own "dictated beliefs" that are knee-jerk reactions to "TBM" beliefs.
So if you express anything remotely TBM & counter to the popular opinion on the forum (mostly liberal), you run the risk of getting reprimanded, just as if you posted anything counter to church doctrine on a church forum.

Others that took unpopular stands like I did, were treated similarly.
People don't see the hypocricy & that sometimes, you can take someone out of a cult, but you can't take the cult (herd thinking) out of them.

Still, as RagdollSally mentioned, these are generalizations.
I met some great people on NOM, some who I keep in contact with still.
I think NOM Is more of a temporary place to vent, to sort out one's feelings when faced with tough truth.
StayLDS seems more of a place of reckoning to truly find the middle way of embracing the idea that the church is not 100% perfect nor 100% imperfect.

Featherina

Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by Featherina » 18 Sep 2012, 13:36

cwald wrote:As of right now, I don't really feel like either board is fitting my needs at this time. I would like to find a "positive" post mormon board, someplace that will not contaminate my spiritual energy with bitterness and anger. (I have plenty of that already.)
greenapples wrote:To be honest I don't really feel like either board has ever truly fulfilled all my needs. I think both boards served a purpose for me and I got a little something out of it. I currently have yet to break 100 posts on either website. I think when the time comes that I do reach 100 posts on either site I will probably take a large break from posting and might even be completely done with posting.
I feel a bit like there's no one single group I belong to, or that I resonate with completely.
Probably, it was the case before, but before, I didn't realize so much... I took things more superficially than I do now.
If I think about differences too much, it's really depressing.
I'm still trying to get over the idea that everyone must think alike to get along.

Still, I do connect occasionally.
It's hit and miss.
I sometimes post on a Philosophy forum, particularly regarding religion, which is interesting sometimes.
When I come across someone who I resonate and connect with, I see it as a treasured gift.
And I realize much of it is up to me being open - both in real life & online.

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