What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

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kupord maizzed

Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by kupord maizzed » 11 Dec 2008, 15:13

Valoel,

I am sorry I missed this thread earlier. It is a good one. I am still torn.

Philosophically I am very well aligned with NOM. But I am a big prude (Sorry. Can't think of a better way to say it.) to put any Latter-day Saint to shame. I have never in my life really used foul language, and I quit saying shoot and dang in my teens. I am uncomfortable with the glamorous, rude, or shocking avatars at NOM. I would like a NOM that is more, well, family friendly, for lack of a better term.

I have no desire to believe again in the LDS Church. Yes, I feel called to bloom where I am planted. But I don't envision that including appreciating it anymore than I would appreciate Catholicism if I had decided to convert to it.

I now have a moral compass and a spiritual beacon that are totally independent of the LDS Church. And so "what is it unto thee" if I choose to dwell among them, "yea, perhaps all my days"?

Is it necessary to frame the mission of StayLDS in terms of "believing again in the church"? Could it possibly be something less threatening like:

1. To live with new joy in the church
2. To love the church in a new way
3. To be LDS without fear, anger, or apology

Would any of that be an improvement?

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Brian Johnston
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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by Brian Johnston » 11 Dec 2008, 15:45

kupord maizzed wrote:Would any of that be an improvement?
It could be. You seem pretty happy about where you are at, so it seems to work for you. I suspect there are as many paths to that happiness and comfort as there are people that seek it. I am curious to find out as more people gather here and share the story of their journey.

Maybe your solution is to not really believe in the Church as an institution -- to simply coexist in harmony with the others where "you were planted" and thrive there. I like the ideas in your list.
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.

kupord maizzed

Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by kupord maizzed » 11 Dec 2008, 16:38

Valoel wrote:Maybe your solution is to not really believe in the Church as an institution
Well, that's certainly true! :-D :-D :-D At the same time, I believe in its future and in its worth and role.

I would hope that more NOMs would not be slowly on their way peacefully out of the church, but rather seeing a mission and place for themselves in the church. It takes love, but we all have that.


"Father, where shall I work today?"
And, my love flowed warm and free.
Then He pointed out a humble spot and said,
"Tend that for me!"

I answered quickly, "Oh, no, not that!
Why, no one would ever see.
No matter how well my work was done:
Not that little place for me!"

The word He spoke, it was not stern;
He answered me tenderly;
"Ah, little one, search thine heart;
Art thou working for them or Me?
Nazareth was a little place,
And so was Galilee."

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Orson
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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by Orson » 11 Dec 2008, 19:18

Nice poem!

KM, I don't think you're as far off our mission as you may think. I like to see one of the fruits of our efforts as learning "not to worry about other people's definitions." Maybe people feel good about being in the church and express that as believing IN the church. Maybe others express it as you did "to love the church in a new way." I really like that phrasing, I have said very similar things myself. I have tended toward "becoming compatible again with full activity" that certainly doesn't put me back into an absolutist mindset. I always took "believing again" as with the added "in a new way" for granted I guess. I like to think we can rise above the definitions, and just be happy, share love, serve, and everything else you have proposed. Some of us may want to be more "fully" active than others, I don't see a problem with that. To me the bottom line is cultivating a positive relationship with the church, not wandering "peacefully out of the church" as you so rightly observed. To me that is the main distinction. I think you're on the right track, it's the positive spiritual attitude that we like to share around here. It's okay if some people express it with different words. I try to hear "TBM" words with "translating" ears.
My avatar - both physical and spiritual.

I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.

kupord maizzed

Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by kupord maizzed » 12 Dec 2008, 09:29

I would like to take this opportunity to bear my testimony of the NOM board. No, wait. Let's see, how can I say that better?

I'd like to take a moment to stand up for the NOM forum in light of the goals of StayLDS. The goals of NOM are actually very close if not identical. The moderators at NOM do accept the option of ending up a Catholic. But they hold as the ideal staying in the church. Rather than helping people out of the church, they seem to realize staying doesn't work for everybody. And sometimes things boil down to irrational expediencies of life.

Based on what I'm saying, it appears the difference between NOM and StayLDS is that StayLDS aims to stay more idealistic, where NOM seems to be more in the trenches meeting the needy where and when they are hurting. Is that fair?

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Brian Johnston
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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by Brian Johnston » 12 Dec 2008, 10:28

kupord maizzed wrote:Based on what I'm saying, it appears the difference between NOM and StayLDS is that StayLDS aims to stay more idealistic, where NOM seems to be more in the trenches meeting the needy where and when they are hurting. Is that fair?
I think that is a way to describe it, sure.

There is certainly a zone of crossover between the two communities. The extremes of the two communities will not mesh well in my opinion, that is a large reason to make two spaces. People who are comfortable in the crossover region can swim easily in both ponds :-).

StayLDS is more geared towards people that are largely done with being angry and hurt, who have satisfied some needs to tear everything apart and see how it ticks (this is a positive experience IMO, so don't read as negative), and who make the decision to move into a new phase of believing and faith (not all go that route). I don't think NOM supports the group I just described. They can't so easily. They have a very important but different mission.

The people at one point in disillusionment don't mix well with people who are not at that point anymore. They frustrate each other a LOT! One isn't right or better, they are different -- like baking soda and vinegar. Both are important ingredients, but they make a fizzy, foamy, explosive mess when you mix them together in a closed container. :-)
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by hawkgrrrl » 12 Dec 2008, 12:37

To be candid, I certainly picture myself as faithful. That doesn't mean I truly am, but it's nevertheless my self-conception.
I think this is a good description (from another thread) of the key difference between NOM and StayLDS. You're in a good place when you are ready to own what you want (your faith) and let go of what you don't want (whatever you don't buy).

kupord maizzed

Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by kupord maizzed » 12 Dec 2008, 13:23

hawkgrrrl wrote:I think this is a good description (from another thread) of the key difference between NOM and StayLDS. You're in a good place when you are ready to own what you want (your faith) and let go of what you don't want (whatever you don't buy).
I don't know why this is so tough for me. I think I was at that place the day after my conversion five years ago. I knew what I then believed and what I didn't believe. All that was left was figuring out how to fit in somehow, somewhere, anywhere.

You know, by the time of my conversion I had already come to satisfying conclusions about polygamy, first vision, temple work, blacks and the priesthood, Mountain Meadows massacre, and One True Church. What the mystical experience of my conversion did was set me free and at the same time anchor me to Heaven and Neighbor.

I still feel more welcome and supported by NOM, even as my standards and goals direct me to StayLDS. Sigh, why must responsibility be so difficult!?!

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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 Dec 2008, 20:48

Sigh, why must responsibility be so difficult!?!
I'm sorry, but that really gave me a chuckle. I don't know how many times I've had that thought.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: What's the difference between NOM and StayLDS?

Post by hawkgrrrl » 15 Dec 2008, 11:32

KM:
I still feel more welcome and supported by NOM, even as my standards and goals direct me to StayLDS.
No need to choose just one! Go to NOM to vent, and bring what fits better here, here. And there's some room for venting here, too. I think Valoel's point is a good one - the extremes of both sites wouldn't probably enjoy each others' company at a dinner party. Both might feel it's a waste of their time. But those in the middle can navigate both and get what they need.

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