Really, why do we put so much emphasis on temples?

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Fatherof4husbandof1
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Re: Really, why do we put so much emphasis on temples?

Post by Fatherof4husbandof1 » 13 Apr 2011, 11:15

hawkgrrrl wrote...Just a side comment. Does anyone actually NOT take TSM's stories with an enormous grain of salt? He is an obvious embellisher.
Hawkgrrrl, I really would like to add to your comment, but I fear that Ray is watching.

:silent:
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HiJolly
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Re: Really, why do we put so much emphasis on temples?

Post by HiJolly » 13 Apr 2011, 11:18

Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:
hawkgrrrl wrote...Just a side comment. Does anyone actually NOT take TSM's stories with an enormous grain of salt? He is an obvious embellisher.
Hawkgrrrl, I really would like to add to your comment, but I fear that Ray is watching.

:silent:
Ray does a marvelous job on this board. This site is an unique environment *because* of his care concerning content.

Love ya, Ray!


HiJolly
Men are not moved by events but by their interpretations.
-- The Stoic Epictetus

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Really, why do we put so much emphasis on temples?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 13 Apr 2011, 11:24

It's ok. I had the "Smite" button removed from my computer last night. :thumbup:

Fwiw, I agree with Hawk on this one. Pres. Monson has an amazing memory - and that can be a problem sometimes for a natural story teller. Memory changes things over time, and it's easy to forget that when it's a story someone thinks they "know" well.

We all do it to some degree, so it's no wonder he does it when he tells SO many stories. I don't think it's intentional; it just "is".
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Really, why do we put so much emphasis on temples?

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 13 Apr 2011, 11:32

HiJolly wrote:
DevilsAdvocate wrote:A more accurate description of my point-of-view is that I feel sorry for some of these members that are making extreme sacrifices for the Church. Maybe they don't want any pity, but the reason I can't help feeling this way is mostly because I think many of them are making these choices based on limited information and/or under significant pressure from other members.

DA, we're ALL making choices based on limited information. I don't care if you read every book ever written on God, Jesus, Mormonism or whatever, what we know or believe is all based on limited info. You and I are no different than they. Everyone should pity everyone else.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:It would be easier for me to give the Church and other members the benefit of the doubt that they are doing all this because they really want to and honestly feel good about it if they had actually heard both sides of the story so they could make an informed decision but I doubt that is actually happening in most cases.

I could make a really crude comment about "informed decision(s)", but I'll refrain... Why do you suppose the first principle of the Gospel is faith? Should rationality be your guide, or personal experience?
I understand that; I'm not really trying to say members need to know everything there is to be able to make the best possible choice for them. My point is that it bothers me that members are asked and expected to make all these sacrifices when many of them have only heard one side of the story because the Church is deliberately giving them misleading information and trying to ignore and deny many basic facts that are likely to cast serious doubts on their official story.

Trying to hide from some of the contradictory evidence will only prolong the agony because it is just sitting there waiting for more members to stumble on or recognize it for what it is. I don't have a problem with taking a leap of faith in cases where there is no way to know for sure what the real answer is, but persistent faith in spite of and against significant existing evidence and generally accepted facts is on shaky ground and not worth the effort in my opinion. That's why I think the Church is wrong to expect so much faith in men that have repeatedly proven to be inconsistent and unreliable.
"Truth is what works." - William James

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cwald
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Re: Really, why do we put so much emphasis on temples?

Post by cwald » 13 Apr 2011, 11:41

Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:
hawkgrrrl wrote...Just a side comment. Does anyone actually NOT take TSM's stories with an enormous grain of salt? He is an obvious embellisher.
Hawkgrrrl, I really would like to add to your comment, but I fear that Ray is watching.

:silent:
Yeah, so what. It didn't stop me from making a snide remark. :smile:
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Really, why do we put so much emphasis on temples?

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 13 Apr 2011, 11:43

hawkgrrrl wrote:Just a side comment. Does anyone actually NOT take TSM's stories with an enormous grain of salt? He is an obvious embellisher. C'mon - the story about digging her children's graves with a spoon a couple years back at conference? These stories strain credulity. In my perception, TSM does not embellish these stories in a careful and deliberate manner - he is a meandering raconteur who gets caught up in his storytelling and doesn't always consider the full application of his stories...I don't think this story was meant to be taken so to heart, and I strongly doubt its veracity. I think it was meant to inspire the routine sacrifice of driving 20 whole minutes across town once a month.
I don't see any convincing reason to doubt that this story is essentially for real. I'm sure there have been many members on remote islands with no temple there so of course it would be relatively expensive to travel to the nearest one. Maybe going to the temple was not the only reason this man was working away from home because there are many cases of non-Mormons basically doing the same thing simply because they can make so much more money that way but other than that it sounds completely plausible to me. Embellished or not, I just don't like the message that all this sacrifice is supposedly worth it. The truth is that we don't know that, but my guess is that many things the Church asks people to do are not really worth it at all. In fact, I think the main reason the Church demands and expects all this is simply because so many members have always been willing to do what they are told without much resistance.

The real sacrifice for the typical active member is not driving 20 minutes across town, it happens when members are convinced they need to pay 10% of their gross income as tithing before paying any other bills and on top of that many of these families only have one income and 5 or more children primarily due to the Church teachings/culture encouraging women to be stay-at-home moms. This is no laughing matter when you see that Utah leads the nation in bankruptcies. That's why I think Thomas S. Monson never should have told this story because it encourages such unrealistic levels of sacrifice as if going to the temple is more important than anything else and this kind of thinking can easily lead to disastrous results for some of the most trusting and faithful members.
Last edited by DevilsAdvocate on 13 Apr 2011, 14:08, edited 5 times in total.
"Truth is what works." - William James

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Fatherof4husbandof1
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Re: Really, why do we put so much emphasis on temples?

Post by Fatherof4husbandof1 » 13 Apr 2011, 11:46

Ray Degraw wrote:It's ok. I had the "Smite" button removed from my computer last night. :thumbup:


Sorry Ray, I had no idea that the "Smite" button could be removed. Now I know. My new concern however is how did HiJ beat you to the punch? no pun... my post 12:15 Hij 12:18 Ray 12:24 Humm?

f4h1
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cwald
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Re: Really, why do we put so much emphasis on temples?

Post by cwald » 13 Apr 2011, 11:48

Hmmm? I don't know DA if I would take it quite that far?

I understand the concept of sacrifice --- I just think perhaps we have gone little bit extreme in some cases - and this would be a good example of that.

I like to think I can give the leaders the benefit of the doubt, and that they are honestly doing what they think is best for the 85% of the membership. It certainly does not make a lot of sense to me, and it just doesn't fit right.

If members out there can make it work and make sense of it all, then good for them.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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Fatherof4husbandof1
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Re: Really, why do we put so much emphasis on temples?

Post by Fatherof4husbandof1 » 13 Apr 2011, 11:50

cwald wrote:
Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:
hawkgrrrl wrote...Just a side comment. Does anyone actually NOT take TSM's stories with an enormous grain of salt? He is an obvious embellisher.
Hawkgrrrl, I really would like to add to your comment, but I fear that Ray is watching.

:silent:
Yeah, so what. It didn't stop me from making a snide remark. :smile:
ya, but cwald you've got connections :evil:
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cwald
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Re: Really, why do we put so much emphasis on temples?

Post by cwald » 13 Apr 2011, 11:51

Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:
ya, but cwald you've got connections :evil:

:silent: :shh:
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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