Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

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HiJolly
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Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by HiJolly » 05 Apr 2011, 14:51

mercyngrace wrote:I actually do believe that obedience is the first law of heaven though I see it in a different way than most have described it thus far.

I see the word "first" as an ordinal reference describing the progression of learning rather than a hierarchy of importance.

In other words, the first thing we have to learn is obedience. For those who have been to the temple, this should make sense.

Obedience is a telestial law paired with sacrifice - both laws that only take us so far in our progression before we must accept the Gospel, a terrestrial law.

Ultimately, the law that allows us to enter God's presence is consecration - complete charity that seeks to elevate others at our own expense (i.e. Christlike love).

So obedience is the first law of heaven like kindergarten is the first grade in elementary school.
Exactly.

If the subconscious mind observes a disconnect between the actions one chooses and the values one holds, consciously or unconsciously, then faith will not occur. Power from on High will not be bestowed. Nothing spiritually positive will be imbued.


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Orson
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Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by Orson » 05 Apr 2011, 20:10

So if I'm reading that correctly I think we can say that Love is the most exalted law of heaven.
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I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.

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Cadence
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Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by Cadence » 05 Apr 2011, 20:23

Obedience to who or what. All we have is a bunch of men telling us what we should do. We have writings we call scripture telling us what to do. But I see no heavenly person telling us that we need to be obedient to get into heaven. It is all third hand information that carries little weight with me anymore.

I would gladly be obedient and follow God if he would just give me a clue what he wants. Until then obedience to the church is at my discretion.
Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. Thomas A. Edison

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by hawkgrrrl » 05 Apr 2011, 20:53

I agree with MnG that obedience / submission / humility is the first in that it's foundational. If you aren't teachable, there's no point in contemplating the divine. We should be teachable and strive to understand God's will and His ways rather than justifying our own ways. But unquestioning obedience to human authority never was nor could be a virtue. After all, human authority may merely be pursuing its own human agenda.

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Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 05 Apr 2011, 21:55

The Sermon on the Mount seems to support m&g's description, especially if you look at that sermon as a description of the progression toward perfection. Everything starts with the Beatitudes (and obedience is an integral part of the type of humility that can produce the other characteristics), and everything ends with pure love.

In other words, I have nothing new to add to what others have said. My answer to the post title question is, "Yes - and, No."
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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mercyngrace
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Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by mercyngrace » 06 Apr 2011, 05:23

Orson wrote:So if I'm reading that correctly I think we can say that Love is the most exalted law of heaven.
Absolutely! This is why Paul says multiple times that love is the fulfillment of the law - once we acquire this perfect Christlike love, we wouldn't think of injuring our neighbor or offending God.

Remember in Moses, God tells Enoch that He really only gave mn two commndments (originally) and those were "Love one another and choose me (God)". The same two commandments Christ said are the basis for all the law and the prophets - the two great commandments.

Love is definitely the most exalted law.
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47

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Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 06 Apr 2011, 07:34

Fwiw, love was stressed as the most important law multiple times in General Conference.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Tom Haws
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Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by Tom Haws » 06 Apr 2011, 20:23

Therefore a pithy opening line for a conference talk might be:

Obedience is the first Law of Heaven. But it isn't the Last.
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
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Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
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SilentDawning
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Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by SilentDawning » 06 Apr 2011, 21:11

Thanks to everyone for this discussion -- M&G's concept of obedience being a fundamental is enlightening. I have always viewed that statement "obedience is the first law of heaven" as if it was THE most important one according to general TBM interpretation.

But my question is this -- now that it's presented as a lower law -- a precursor to greater commandments, exactly what are you obeying? What commandments are you talking about?
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Tom Haws
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Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by Tom Haws » 06 Apr 2011, 21:15

If it's moral commandments we are talking about, I have, and teach my children, only one: The Golden Rule. Everything else is either supporting commentary/detail (eg. chastity, honesty) or "mere" spiritual practice separate from the moral commandment (eg. sabbath, fasting, prayer).

I believe strongly in spiritual practices, and I realize they may give us the very power necessary to act morally. But they are not moral commandments.
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
Higley and Guadalupe
Gilbert, Arizona
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Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
"There are no academic issues. Everything is emotional to somebody." Ray Degraw at www.StayLDS.com

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