Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
behappy
Posts: 33
Joined: 11 Aug 2010, 20:11

Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by behappy » 05 Apr 2011, 10:44

I have been thinking a lot lately about where I fit in the Church and, to me more importantly, how to raise my children (4 yo and 1 yo) in the Church when I don't believe the truth claims. I have decided as of late that I can stay and participate without feeling like I need to believe in the history or even some of the doctrine. I feel this way because I don't see the history or some doctrine as part of the everyday Church experience. I see the Church teaching other things. What I would like input on from the group is what is the focus of the Church?

I did an exercise a few weeks ago and looked at Oct GC and analyzed the message of each talk. I don't think it should surprise anyone but the most common message was obedience. If I remember right 13 talks dealt with the topic. Then I looked at the TR questions. I did this because the temple is the ultimate goal on earth. So, what is the focus on entrance into the temple? 6 of the 13 questions dealt with obedience to leaders or laws and 2 were about how you treat others.

I have not done the same analysis on this conference but I will as soon as the talks are available in print. From listening obedience was in there but I don't think to the same extend as Oct.

So, is obedience the first law or heaven? Is obedience really the ultimate goal in this life? I am not sure it is the message I want to teach my kids.

Please let me know what your thoughts are.

User avatar
SilentDawning
Posts: 7336
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by SilentDawning » 05 Apr 2011, 11:11

I believe there is scriptural evidence that Obedience is NOT the first law of heaven. For example, we read that if I have not Charity, then I am nothing.

Therefore, the person who is obedient, but is not charitable, has nothing -- lack of charity cancels obedience.

Therefore, love is the first law of heaven, in my view.

Also, I have been in meetings where people have been trying to push their agendas related to their callings. Say, family history. The number of times I have specific agenda-items portrayed as "the most important commandment" is staggering. I've heard fatherhood is the most important calling, that being called to do missionary work is the most important calling, and finally that doing family history is the most important thing we can do in this life.

I think that obedience is another attempt to further leadership aims, specific to the agenda and goals of the person espousing it. I'm reminded of a quote from Ben Franklin's autobiography, where he reacted to a minister's sermon indicating that in order to please God, you need to do this, and that, and finally, obey your ministers. Ben concluded the talk was meant to make good Presbyterians, not necessarily good Christians. And then he never went back!!!

Now, much of the Church advice is good advice. You won't find yourself addicted if you avoid harmful drugs your whole life. Generally, obeying your parents is a good idea for youth who lack experience. Being chaste until marriage can do a lot to help you stay out of trouble and bringing hardship into the world. Obedience to Church leaders on every thing they want you to do, even when its not good for your inner peace, your family, or your health? Not so. HOwever, I stop short of obedience being the first law of heaven -- Love Is!!!
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

doug
Posts: 799
Joined: 23 Sep 2010, 07:37

Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by doug » 05 Apr 2011, 11:29

This was discussed a little bit here recently.
The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also. -- Mark Twain

User avatar
cwald
Posts: 3628
Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 06:39

Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by cwald » 05 Apr 2011, 11:40

No.

Love is the 1st law of heaven
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

User avatar
DevilsAdvocate
Posts: 1392
Joined: 19 Feb 2010, 12:56
Location: Utah

Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 05 Apr 2011, 11:53

behappy wrote:I did an exercise a few weeks ago and looked at Oct GC and analyzed the message of each talk. I don't think it should surprise anyone but the most common message was obedience. If I remember right 13 talks dealt with the topic. Then I looked at the TR questions. I did this because the temple is the ultimate goal on earth. So, what is the focus on entrance into the temple? 6 of the 13 questions dealt with obedience to leaders or laws and 2 were about how you treat others...So, is obedience the first law or heaven? Is obedience really the ultimate goal in this life? I am not sure it is the message I want to teach my kids.
To me, this idea sort of made sense as long as I believed these doctrines really came directly from God but as soon as I started to suspect that maybe they were just man-made traditions then some of these things were much harder to feel motivated about anymore. In fact, some of these unreasonable demands made me want to specifically resist getting a temple recommend again mostly because I started to really resent the apparent manipulation involved in these entrance requirements. If the Church asks me to do something that makes sense and I can feel good about it by itself then I wouldn't mind going along with it but if they ask me to do something just because some LDS prophets said so then that's just not a good enough reason for me anymore because they've been wrong before and can't seem to keep their story straight if you look at their overall track record.
Last edited by DevilsAdvocate on 05 Apr 2011, 11:58, edited 1 time in total.
"Truth is what works." - William James

User avatar
cwald
Posts: 3628
Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 06:39

Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by cwald » 05 Apr 2011, 11:57

DevilsAdvocate wrote:
To me this idea sort of made sense as long as I believed these doctrines really came directly from God but as soon as I started to suspect that maybe they were just man-made traditions then some of these things were much harder to feel motivated about anymore. In fact, some of these unreasonable demands made me want to specifically resist getting a temple recommend mostly because I started to really resent the apparent manipulation involved in these entrance requirements. ...
This is the way I see it too.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

User avatar
SilentDawning
Posts: 7336
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by SilentDawning » 05 Apr 2011, 13:09

DevilsAdvocate wrote:
To me this idea sort of made sense as long as I believed these doctrines really came directly from God but as soon as I started to suspect that maybe they were just man-made traditions then some of these things were much harder to feel motivated about anymore. In fact, some of these unreasonable demands made me want to specifically resist getting a temple recommend mostly because I started to really resent the apparent manipulation involved in these entrance requirements. ...
Once you check out of the temple recommend-holding concept, everyone in leadership seems off-base, I've noticed. You are a bit of an outsider as a result, but it does have its liberating aspects.

I didn't have one for a while, and although leaders will say "you're not keeping your covenants" there is no forum to confront you with specific commandments, as you have in a sense, "rejected the carrot".
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

User avatar
Tom Haws
Posts: 1245
Joined: 13 Jan 2009, 06:57
Location: Gilbert, Arizona, USA
Contact:

Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by Tom Haws » 05 Apr 2011, 13:13

Accepting the Law of Obedience is the first temple covenant. That has been stated inadvisedly outside the temple as "Obedience is the first law of heaven." That, in turn, has been taken (by me in my previous life) to mean that tyranny and dominion are in order to enforce and inculcate obedience.
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
Higley and Guadalupe
Gilbert, Arizona
----
Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
"There are no academic issues. Everything is emotional to somebody." Ray Degraw at www.StayLDS.com

User avatar
mercyngrace
Posts: 517
Joined: 18 Jan 2011, 12:26

Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by mercyngrace » 05 Apr 2011, 13:38

I actually do believe that obedience is the first law of heaven though I see it in a different way than most have described it thus far.

I see the word "first" as an ordinal reference describing the progression of learning rather than a hierarchy of importance.

In other words, the first thing we have to learn is obedience. For those who have been to the temple, this should make sense.

Obedience is a telestial law paired with sacrifice - both laws that only take us so far in our progression before we must accept the Gospel, a terrestrial law.

Ultimately, the law that allows us to enter God's presence is consecration - complete charity that seeks to elevate others at our own expense (i.e. Christlike love).

So obedience is the first law of heaven like kindergarten is the first grade in elementary school.
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47

User avatar
Tom Haws
Posts: 1245
Joined: 13 Jan 2009, 06:57
Location: Gilbert, Arizona, USA
Contact:

Re: Is Obedience the 1st Law of Heaven?

Post by Tom Haws » 05 Apr 2011, 14:36

Exactly, M&G. Well put, as usual.
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
Higley and Guadalupe
Gilbert, Arizona
----
Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
"There are no academic issues. Everything is emotional to somebody." Ray Degraw at www.StayLDS.com

Post Reply