How Do You Reconcile these Scriptures?

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SilentDawning
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Re: How Do You Reconcile these Scriptures?

Post by SilentDawning » 13 Jun 2010, 15:48

I've decided a couple things after reading the Stay in the Church article -- one is, I'm not beating myself up over not attending meetings that I see little value in -such as Stake Training on topics I've heard a buzillion times. Also, not going to accept callings that have the potential to disturb me due to certain interactions with people at Church. Not out bitterness, but out of self-preservation given some bad thinking tendencies I have I have one other commitment brewing that I also feel good about. But that I won't be sharing that one.

Also, unlike my last stint as Ward Leader, I'm also not going to accept a calling when I KNOW it's going to keep me run off my feet as a I pursue my soont-to-be doctoral studies.

As I reflected on all these things, I felt such peace. And then, without all this stress on me, I started reflecting on who I might go forward and serve in our ward for service's own sake. Isn't it strange how church policies or procedures/expectations sometimes actually inhibit us from showing pure love for people due to how busy they can make us? And how letting go of certain cultural expectations can actually make you more committed?
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

Curt Sunshine
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Re: How Do You Reconcile these Scriptures?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 13 Jun 2010, 16:01

SD, I agree - and I'm just saying that it's important to be clear that anger certainly has a place in the process in which we are engaged for many people, but it's not the continuing condition for which we are striving here. Anger might get some/many to the place where they can begin to craft their own belief structure within Mormonism - but it certainly doesn't have to be the case for all/most/many.

bridget, I didn't mean my previous statement to be a criticism. I meant it simply to be a statement. Many of us are HERE, at this particular site, because we no longer are "angry" - at least to the extent that existed previously for some. Some here used to spend more time at other sites where anger is the norm; it's not the norm here. Of course, there still is anger to a degree even with people here - but it's not the underlying reason for this site, and I hope sincerely it is dissipating for each person here over time.

I also think there is a tendency to equate great passion with the verses quoted in this post - and there is a degree of validity to that interpretation, I am sure. However, for me personally, I simply have never liked the phrase "mad as Hell" - since I always have seen that phrase as very destructive. I probably wrote a bit more curtly than I meant to do because of how I view that phrase. I don't think being "mad as Hell" is a proper interpretation of the verse to be hot or cold. :)
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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bridget_night
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Re: How Do You Reconcile these Scriptures?

Post by bridget_night » 13 Jun 2010, 17:33

SilentDawning wrote:
Ray Degraw wrote:
"We're mad as hell, and not going to take it anymore!"


For the record, that doesn't describe me - and, I suspect, most of the regulars here.
When I read Bridget's post, I interpreted it differently. As someone who struggles with attitudes and weaknesses that cause me angst in the Church, I've often felt intense disapproval of the circumstances and angst I bring up on myself, and it motivates me to do something about it. Rather than let the weakness get you down, you demand that you do something about it because you're just plain sick and tired of the negative effects. So being "mad as blazes" at one's own less activity, unhappiness or other peace-disturbing tendencies is a good thing; it's a call to personal action that should be encouraged, in my view.

And adopting some of the attitudes in the "How to Stay Active in the Church" article is one way of dealing with those maddening negative effects on your life.

Back when I had my run-in with the Bishopric and the injustice I was feeling, as well as the inactivity I was constantly fighting out of my life -- I got this DRIVE to do what I had to in order to stay connectd with my Ward. So, I threatened to quit my calling and take my family to another Ward unless the situation could be brought to a "satisfactory resolution". Some would argue I should've just forgiven and moved on, but I COULDN'T -- all attempts had failed. So, I did what I had to, to take charge of the situation. And what I did helped. I felt more peace, stayed in my calling and stayed connected.

So, being mad as blazes at a situation, which motivates you to action may well be your saving grace at times. It was for me.

Now, I didn't express the anger -- everything was couched in gentleman's langauge and described politely, but unerneath it all was EXTREME DISAPPROVAL for the circumstances I was in. It motivated me to stay in the church, and I made it through that trial of faith.
THANK YOU Silent Dawning. That is what I meant. Bridget

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bridget_night
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Re: How Do You Reconcile these Scriptures?

Post by bridget_night » 13 Jun 2010, 17:40

Ray Degraw wrote:SD, I agree - and I'm just saying that it's important to be clear that anger certainly has a place in the process in which we are engaged for many people, but it's not the continuing condition for which we are striving here. Anger might get some/many to the place where they can begin to craft their own belief structure within Mormonism - but it certainly doesn't have to be the case for all/most/many.

bridget, I didn't mean my previous statement to be a criticism. I meant it simply to be a statement. Many of us are HERE, at this particular site, because we no longer are "angry" - at least to the extent that existed previously for some. Some here used to spend more time at other sites where anger is the norm; it's not the norm here. Of course, there still is anger to a degree even with people here - but it's not the underlying reason for this site, and I hope sincerely it is dissipating for each person here over time.

I also think there is a tendency to equate great passion with the verses quoted in this post - and there is a degree of validity to that interpretation, I am sure. However, for me personally, I simply have never liked the phrase "mad as Hell" - since I always have seen that phrase as very destructive. I probably wrote a bit more curtly than I meant to do because of how I view that phrase. I don't think being "mad as Hell" is a proper interpretation of the verse to be hot or cold. :)
Ray, I do understand where you are coming from. And it is not good to go around mad with a chip on your shoulder. I know this group is to help us come to terms with our thoughts and feelings about the church. I just used the term in the context from a movie I saw once. There are moments when we feel such 'righteous indignation" (not sure if that is the right term) but this anger at injustices, whether it is from being over taxed or for feeling judged just because you have doubts or questions about the church.

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Tom Haws
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Re: How Do You Reconcile these Scriptures?

Post by Tom Haws » 13 Jun 2010, 21:25

Ray Degraw wrote:
"We're mad as hell, and not going to take it anymore!"


For the record, that doesn't describe me - and, I suspect, most of the regulars here.
Yet I think that's a place we have experienced, recognized, avoided, and learned not to be.
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
Higley and Guadalupe
Gilbert, Arizona
----
Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
"There are no academic issues. Everything is emotional to somebody." Ray Degraw at www.StayLDS.com

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Martine
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Re: How Do You Reconcile these Scriptures?

Post by Martine » 14 Jun 2010, 10:40

Orson wrote:Today I look back at myself before the faith crisis and see that I was much more "lukewarm" then. I feel like I have much more purpose and understanding in everything I do now.
Amen to that.

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Heber13
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Re: How Do You Reconcile these Scriptures?

Post by Heber13 » 14 Jun 2010, 15:05

Martine wrote:
Orson wrote:Today I look back at myself before the faith crisis and see that I was much more "lukewarm" then. I feel like I have much more purpose and understanding in everything I do now.
Amen to that.
Amen to your "amen".
bridget_night wrote:"We're mad as hell, and not going to take it anymore!"
.
I've learned that I don't have to take anything from anyone anymore...and I'm no longer mad about it either. :D
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Cadence
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Re: How Do You Reconcile these Scriptures?

Post by Cadence » 14 Jun 2010, 19:50

It is referring to chocolate milk
Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. Thomas A. Edison

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” Neil deGrasse Tyson

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cwald
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Re: How Do You Reconcile these Scriptures?

Post by cwald » 14 Jun 2010, 21:20

Cadence wrote:It is referring to chocolate milk
:)
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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SilentDawning
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Re: How Do You Reconcile these Scriptures?

Post by SilentDawning » 15 Jun 2010, 05:20

Heber13 wrote:I've learned that I don't have to take anything from anyone anymore...and I'm no longer mad about it either. :D
I there's some of that too -- partly, you don't have to take it from yourself when you don't do every single thing mandated by local leaders with a sudden idea.

And also, yes, I think the sacrifices become hard to bear sometimes, and this can lead to resentment. So, shaking the belief that you have to do everything you're asked all the time would bring a measure of peace to some. I'm starting to feel that way now about a few issues bothering me about the Church, and that HAVE bothered me for years.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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