Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
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Tom Haws wrote:I really like this idea. The OT says Yahweh will visit the sins of the fathers on their children unto the third and the fourth generation. But if we arise and atone, we redeem the fathers from that curse. Powerful.
Yes! When studying the "curse" concept in the scriptures I loved how any curse could be broken as soon as people returned to Love/God.
Ray, I totally agree with your comments on redeeming the dead. That is how I see it. I think the best way to honor our dead is to not make the same mistakes, but love them and accept their own journey. That is often easier said than done.
Most of us, sooner or later, find that at critical points in our lives we must strike out on our own to make a path where none exists.~Elaine Pagels
Ultimately, you are the path-the path begins and ends with you.~Stephan Bodian
He who think he knows, doesn’t know: He who knows he doesn’t know, knows.~Sanskrit proverb
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- Joined: 28 Jul 2009, 15:08
I never thought about it that way before! Thanks Ray for giving me a new insight into redeeming the dead!
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- Joined: 23 Jun 2009, 10:20
Love this concept...I have pondered along these lines many times in the past year. Ray, your point is well taken here. Why wait until our fathers/mothers/those who have offended are literally dead? There is so much healing that be created as we love in a Christ-like way right NOW! This type of love has no expectation, no conditions.
As I have cast off the expectations and conditional love I had for myself I have been able to move forward and stop blaming and being a victim. I no longer seek to control my relationships, just accept what the other person gives and realize it is the best they have at this point in time. My children recognize this now as well...as my heart has turned to them they are becoming free to BE who they really are and act out of love rather than fear. This understanding that we are all connected is so beautiful!
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- Joined: 23 Jul 2009, 03:12
This issue on redemption of the dead has puzzled me and troubled me. Please take a moment to review this link:
http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/200 ... -the-dead/
The above link discusses the controversy that is caused when the LDS Church uses Catholic Parish records (and record of other churches) to perform proxy baptisms. Some of the deceased Catholic Priests who took vows of celibacy during their lives have even been sealed to wives.
My feelings on this is that we should reverence and respect the dead as we would the living. We should uphold the choices that they made and the faith that they developed and maintained whilst on this earth. Many faithful Christians lived and died as members of the Catholic Church. Their names appeared on Parish Records. They were Christened and blessed as Catholics. Prior to their death, they received their "last rites" and anointing by a Catholic Priest.
Now how do we honor and respect the dead? The Catholic Church does not object to us doing family history (genealogy) for their deceased members. They do object to temple ordinance work being done on behalf of their deceased. This is just one of my dilemmas with proxy work. Please feel free to explain this to me.
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MWallace, the problem is that such a stance would eliminate baptism for the dead at the practical level - since probably not one person who is not Mormon would want to be baptized into the LDS Church if s/he was offered that chance while living.
I really don't want this thread to turn to a generic discussion of vicarious ordinances.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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Ray Degraw wrote:MWallace, the problem is that such a stance would eliminate baptism for the dead at the practical level - since probably not one person who is not Mormon would want to be baptized into the LDS Church if s/he was offered that chance while living.
MWallace raises an interesting point though... If it's mainly about turning the hearts of the children to the fathers, wouldn't it be just as meaningful for us to do proxy ordinances that would have been meaningful to them? For example, coming from a Scottish background, I think it would be more meaningful (to both me and my non-LDS fore-father in question) if I performed an "Ode to a Haggis" on their behalf rather than a temple baptism or endowment. Those things simply were not part of their life nor meaningful to them... it can only be worse to the memory of those to whom it would be contrary (such as a Catholic priest), wouldn't it?
"If you wish to see the truth then hold no opinions for or against anything. To set up what you like against what you dislike is the disease of the mind." -Chien-chih Seng-ts'an, Zen Buddhist [606 AD]
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- Joined: 26 Jan 2010, 10:18
This is my understanding and the way I view it. After this life we will have an opportunity to progress as well as be taught. Both those who have received their ordinances as well as those who haven't. Say you were a stalwart strong as can be baptist and you died. Once you got up there you started hearing all these things and people talking about baptism and endowements and all sorts of stuff. Well you become curious and so you start investigating what everyone is talking about. The more you investigate the more you find out that you want your baptism and endowments done and you want to be sealed to your spouse. But you missed/never got the opportunity/or turned down the opportunity when you were alive. However, now you want all of it but you don't have a body so you can't receive any of it. Would you want to go eternity not being able to obtain it, just because you missed out on it or didn't believe it in a previous life?
Even though we perform the proxy ordinances doesn't mean the people they are performed for have to accept them. If in the afterlife they still decide "No this is not for me, I don't want it." They don't have to accept the ordinances and its like they never happened. Just because they are performed doesn't mean they have to accept them. I would rather have the opportunity and the ability to turn it down rather than never have the opportunity at all, IMHO.
Also I saw a comment about Catholic priests who had remained celebate having their temple work done and being sealed when they were never married. If this has happend I believe it is in great error, because sealings can't/shouldn't be done unless there was a marriage performed in this life. From all that I have heard and understand.