What happens when you are judged

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DarkJedi
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Re: What happens when you are judged

Post by DarkJedi » 16 May 2020, 17:41

nibbler wrote:
15 May 2020, 18:30
I think the teaching that people can't progress from kingdom to kingdom came from someone concerned that if people could progress from kingdom to kingdom then everyone would approach life with reckless abandon. In other words, why bother trying to be good in life if you have all eternity to make it? In comes the "rule" that people can't progress from kingdom to kingdom to stave off that imagined outcome.

I've found that generally we are our own harshest critic. So much so that I feel god would take on more of a therapist role than the role of judge. People are very good at being judges, it's no surprise that we imagine god to be the same.
I agree and could name names (not someone, rather a group) but it's easy enough to figure out, although some of them were a little more "behind the scenes" players. I believe this orchestrated shift in ideology is the roots of today's "strict obedience" and works based salvation attitude. I also believe we are starting to see a shift away from that ideology but I don't expect to really see a return to the teaching of progression in the kingdoms soon, but nowadays almost anything can happen (as long as RMN holds the reins).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Heber13
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Re: What happens when you are judged

Post by Heber13 » 20 May 2020, 08:53

Arrakeen wrote:
10 May 2020, 22:19
Recently I’ve come to really like the idea of reincarnation. It gives mortality a more learning-centered feel while the LDS concept of earth life is often framed as more of a test. I would like to believe in a God who sets things up to help us and teach us rather than to judge who is worthy.
Don't you think it would make so much sense since we believe in a spirit world and progression that we should keep getting more chances in this mortal life to learn things until we are worthy of the CK? Instead of eternally stuck in TKs?
Katzpur wrote:
10 May 2020, 19:51
To me, my body and my spirit belong together. I'm still undecided as to whether I believe in progression between kingdoms, though, and until I find a good reason to disbelieve it, I'm going to keep leaning in that direction.
I guess that would be the other factor...it wouldn't keep our mortal bodies consistent with spirit and body immortalized forever, and probably create more problems with the plan of salvation for who is sealed to whom. So...I guess it wouldn't work out.

Just seems weird we have eternity...and so much judged on this brief blink of an eye in our mortal experience, especially when so much random stuff happens in mortality to make it seem unfair to one shot at this ... there is so much out of our control in order to experience and learn things just in one lifetime.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Roy
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Re: What happens when you are judged

Post by Roy » 21 May 2020, 15:01

A long time ago I had a similar struggle. A StayLDS participant by the name Mercyngrace showed me a way to reconcile the unrestrained love of God and His desire for our eternal progress with LDS teachings.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2288&hilit=love+win ... l&start=20
What are these 3 degrees of the Celestial Kingdom? These are not really different KINGDOMS - in fact the word kingdom only appears in the SINGULAR in D&C 76. There are however, different GLORIES. D&C 88 explains that we are quickened to the glory of the kingdom whose law we are able to keep but we live together in the Celestial kingdom. For that to happen, the degrees we teach as a "tiered heaven" must be the degrees of glory which individual beings inherit in the Celestial Kingdom. D&C 130:2 reiterates that we will have the SAME SOCIALITY in heaven that we have now only couple with eternal GLORY.

Now Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other early restoration prophets taught that resurrection is a culmination of progression. So we continue to progress in spirit until we are prepared to be resurrected - this is why D&C says that the greater knowledge a man acquires here, the more his advantage in the world to come. Not because others are lost but because those who abide higher laws are further along in the process.

Some more recent church leaders have spoken vehemently against progression between the kingdoms based on the misconception that a being can be resurrected in a telestial or terrestrial state. In other words, you can't progress from being a telestial resurrected being to a celestial resurrected being. That is true. It's true because you can't be resurrected prior to entering the celestial kingdom, at least, according to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

Now I can provide you with quotes to these ends as well as quotes by more recent church leaders who also spoke to the universal nature of salvation.

There is a judgment, a final judgment, and you will have been prepared to meet it successfully before you are presented at the veil. It is an individual presentation and you must have been taught everything that you need to know before arriving.
The quoted portion is only a taste. Please follow the link if you want source citations etc.

As indicated in the quoted portion. Some more recent church leaders have spoken against such progression. I have found that for me to stayLDS it is necessary for me to believe some things differently than others in my ward. We do not all have to have identical beliefs. Still, it helps if I can quote a church leader in support of my divergent beliefs. This helps others to understand that, while I may be different, I am still Mormon.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Heber13
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Re: What happens when you are judged

Post by Heber13 » 22 May 2020, 08:46

Roy wrote:
21 May 2020, 15:01
I have found that for me to stayLDS it is necessary for me to believe some things differently than others in my ward. We do not all have to have identical beliefs. Still, it helps if I can quote a church leader in support of my divergent beliefs. This helps others to understand that, while I may be different, I am still Mormon.
I like the way you said that. Thanks for the reminder.

Since none of us know what the judgment or any part of the afterlike is really like, even if others at church want to have certainty on it so badly, the fact is we choose what to put faith in by what we read, and also what we feel inside to make sense to us, confirmed by the spirit.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Sunshine64
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Re: What happens when you are judged

Post by Sunshine64 » 13 Jun 2020, 14:19

I came across a 1930 April General Conference talk by Elder James E Talmage. He says “salvation is graded ever upward until it culminates in the glorious condition of exaltation... One of the greatest [truths] is that to hell there is an exit as well as an entrance...It is a place prepared for the teaching, the disciplining of those who failed to learn here upon the earth what they should have learned.”

Minyan Man
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Re: What happens when you are judged

Post by Minyan Man » 13 Jun 2020, 18:27

Were did you find it? Is there away we can get a copy of the talk? Thank you.

Sunshine64
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Re: What happens when you are judged

Post by Sunshine64 » 14 Jun 2020, 15:38

Here is the link to the talk by Elder Talmage, page 94: https://archive.org/details/ConferenceR ... conference. I am no way near a theologian so am interested in others’ comments. I found this reference in Scripture Study Made Easy:
Book of Mormon
by Kathryn Jenkins Gordon.
Thanks.

Minyan Man
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Re: What happens when you are judged

Post by Minyan Man » 14 Jun 2020, 20:16

Thanks again for the link. Very interesting.

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DarkJedi
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Re: What happens when you are judged

Post by DarkJedi » 15 Jun 2020, 06:17

Finding old GC talks isn't as hard as you might think, but it often takes more than just a Google search. Here's a link from the church website that lists a few ways to find older talks: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/chu ... s?lang=eng

Within that link are four other links. Most of us are fairly familiar with the first one. It links to the church website that has talks back to 1971 and is the same archive available on your Gospel Library app and on churchofjesuschrist.org.

The second link is to the BYU "corpus." It's trickier because the talks don't just pop up, you have to search for what you're looking for (key words or phrases). Once you do that though, talks will pop up from as far back as 1851. There's also some other fun stuff to play around with there because it will give frequency of words or phrases.

The third link is to the church history department's archive, which is literally scanned copies of conference reports. This one is more useful if you know when someone said it, like the quote from above. There is no index, but you can sort by year and you can read all the talks back to 1900 and a few before that. There are also some in other languages.

The last one I find is the hardest to use. It is a link to BYU's "Scripture Citation Index." If you want to see how often a certain passage of scriputre has been used, by whom, and when, it's useful. Also, on the bottom right there is a "library" button. Clicking it will bring up links to GC since 1942 (from church magazines) and the Journal of Discourses.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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PazamaManX
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Re: What happens when you are judged

Post by PazamaManX » 15 Jun 2020, 15:17

I remember hearing a talk given by a seventy once where he stated that we would get to choose where we would spend eternity. Rather than it being a judgement passed sentencing you to a particular place, our judgement would probably look more like a conversation (I guess maybe similar to one you might have in a bishops office?) and you would then choose where you would be most comfortable spending eternity. While I do have a few issues with this idea, it's the one that seems to make the most sense to me personally.
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness, even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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