LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

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SamBee
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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by SamBee » 25 Oct 2019, 06:46

I have to say I'm very confused by their stance. They contradict themselves so much on it.

I'd like to think it doesn't still go on. By all accounts, it's pretty brutal.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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SamBee
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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by SamBee » 25 Oct 2019, 06:47

Cadence wrote:
19 Oct 2019, 06:44
The church would be better off it it stopped wadding into crocodile infested waters. This issue is a no win for them yet, they keep stirring the pot.
Yes this!

It's like that person you invite over for dinner, whose apologies make an argument worse.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Heber13
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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by Heber13 » 25 Oct 2019, 08:18

The church would be better off it it stopped wadding into crocodile infested waters. This issue is a no win for them yet, they keep stirring the pot.
I am not sure I agree with their choice of actions on this issue, just like I didn't agree with the campaigns against Propositions to oppose gay marriage.

BUT... the only thing I can see is that the issue isn't black and white or simple.

If it was solely about rights for LGBTQ+ individuals, I think they could stay out of those waters and love everyone and hope everyone is happy, even if they have their view of what God thinks.

However, the problem I see is that those waters include a perceived challenge to their religious freedoms. And so the fear is if they stay out of the waters, they lose their property. The waters and crocodiles have come on to their property to be dealt with, not the church going out and seeking the fight.

Some fights are lose-lose if they get involved or if they don't get involved. So the choice is which loss is less painful, even if there is no win.

God creates an interesting mortal experience where we are given dilemmas and there often isn't a "right" and "wrong" but more of a choice. Like the Brother of Jared deciding crystal rocks were going to be the light source, God doesn't care what we come up with as a choice, but is judging us on how we choose and act, even if there is no black and white clear right answer.

If the church sits on the sidelines, I think they feel they will lose rights to practice the religion in the long run.

If you could separate the two issues...I think the church would be fine with LGBTQ+ rights.

So the church's position isn't about being "against LGBTQ+" rights...it is about their belief they need to be protecting church rights. They just overlap and it gets complicated, and they are not choosing to step into the waters, but are in them...and have to choose to get out and close up chapel doors and quit, or choose to fight for the right to practice the religion according to our conscience.

I'm not saying I agree with that assessment...the error could be that the church fears their rights will be lost, when that won't happen. But if the prophets believe long-term they need to protect it, they are willing to step into the waters. Who knows if their fears are justified or not??

It's hard for me to see why the church cares, and why they won't let it go. But I truly believe it is not about fighting against LGBTQ+ rights, but is about their belief they must defend their religious rights, and then they get painted in bad light because of it...but that is reality.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

nibbler
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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by nibbler » 25 Oct 2019, 08:45

Given the church's track record it's much harder for me to conclude that the church operates in good faith when it comes to LBGT+ issues. Oaks repeated statements also don't help the church's case.

Locals and leaders alike often say "religious freedom" but what they're really talking about is being against gay marriage. Perhaps that sort of thing has dried up at the GA level, but it's still very much a thing in my local area. Locally "religious freedom" is code-speak for starting a rant about society's acceptance of gay marriage. It's very similar to how we don't talk about "masturbation" at church, we talk about "petting" and factories of various sizes.

Dodges and code speak get tiring. What is the religious freedom that is being eroded with this specific issue? IMO we haven't done a good job of answering that question. Playing the religious freedom card feels like a dodge.

Getting silly with it: What if someone were to organize a church in the negative mirror image of the LDS church. It would be a violation of the LDS church's religious freedoms if conversion therapy was banned and a violation of the Bizarro-LDS church's religious freedoms if conversion therapy wasn't banned.

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Heber13
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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by Heber13 » 25 Oct 2019, 09:09

nibbler wrote:
25 Oct 2019, 08:45
Oaks repeated statements also don't help the church's case.
Which comments are you referring to?
nibbler wrote:
25 Oct 2019, 08:45
Locals and leaders alike often say...
:D you lost me at "Local and leaders"...haha...they are all over the map and vary by ward...the roulette thing..right? Locals don't understand what the prophets are doing any more than I do. I take all that with a grain of salt.

I could be wrong...I could be naive...but I don't think the First Presidency is sitting in the temple towers thinking about how they can discriminate against gay people.

I think what they are trying to protect is the right that we can still marry people in the temple and the country honors that religious ceremony as binding and legal thing, and that we have the right to not do eternal marriage sealings with homosexual couples, even if we allow civil marriages to do that. This would be in line with God's teachings to prophets.

Then religious freedoms are preserved. Those who believe temple sealings are for man and woman only are allowed to practice that. Those who disagree can go to a different religion. Checks and balances, differing factions allowed to function as they do, balance and freedoms, as our founding fathers established the country.

I disagreed with the church when they wanted to make gay marriage unconstitutional. I'm glad they lost that fight. But this fight has a different spin to it.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Roy
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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by Roy » 25 Oct 2019, 09:48

I think the church wants the right to send young people to counseling and therapy sessions where the therapist reinforces the church standards and doctrines.
The LDS Family services gave 3 examples where they felt that this rule change would inhibit them from providing helpful and wanted therapy assistance. I too have a scenario. What would happen if a young gay man came into LDS Family Services for counseling? This teenager is committed to chastity before marriage but does want to date and explore same sex relationships during his high school and early college years. He looks forward to eventually meeting another gay man, becoming married, and having a family (possibly through adoption or foster care or surrogacy).
In short, he wants everything that a responsible young heterosexual LDS person wants in terms of relationships and family life except that he is homosexual. I would like to know what sort of counseling and support this young man might receive at LDS Family Services. I suspect that he would receive a referral to a therapist outside of LDS Family Services.

From the 13 page document listing the LDS Family Services comments on the proposed rule change -
"If a therapist challenges a clients' assumptions about their sexuality, is this neutral?"
The context is that treatments that are nuetral towards sexuality are ok under the rule. I would answer that a therapist challenging a client's assumptions about their sexuality is not neutral. I think that I would be highly offended if my therapist were to challenge my assumptions about my sexuality. If it should not be done for heterosexuals then it should not be done for homosexuals - that is the definition of nuetral.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

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DarkJedi
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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by DarkJedi » 25 Oct 2019, 11:25

nibbler wrote:
25 Oct 2019, 08:45
Getting silly with it: What if someone were to organize a church in the negative mirror image of the LDS church. It would be a violation of the LDS church's religious freedoms if conversion therapy was banned and a violation of the Bizarro-LDS church's religious freedoms if conversion therapy wasn't banned.
OOO, like the Star Trek episode "Mirror, Mirror"? That'd be interesting. Or just a Bizarro version of a prophet?
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by Roy » 25 Oct 2019, 12:38

DarkJedi wrote:
25 Oct 2019, 05:05
Apparently acknowledging that there is at least a lack of understanding about the church's position on conversion therapy, the church has reaffirmed its opposition through a media spokesperson.

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2019/10/23 ... day-saints

(The article then goes on to defend the church's opposition to the legislation.)
Thank you for this additional link DJ. Yes, the church is against conversion therapy as strictly defined as therapy with the sole purpose of changing a homosexual into heterosexual. I think the church sees the writing on the wall that such therapy is damaging and most importantly DOES NOT WORK. What LDS family services does do and wants to continue to do (according to my understanding) is to provide counseling to assist young homosexuals to refrain and abstain from any and all homosexual relationships and forms of intimacy for the rest of their life - or at least as long as they are associated with the COJCOLDS.
The church will oppose the rule unless it protects therapists who are parents, grandparents or religious leaders from losing their licenses for giving spiritual, religiously based counsel. [snip]
The church is worried the rule does not include protections that had been part of HB399 for parents and grandparents who are licensed therapists. Stephens said there is concern that if they counseled their children or grandchildren differently than the rule directs, they could lose their licenses to practice.
He said the same is true of a therapist serving as a Latter-day Saint bishop. HB399 specifically said a licensed therapist acting in a pastoral or religious capacity would not lose state licensing for providing spiritual guidance.
“They would be threatened with license revocation if they even talked about spiritual ways to cope with life’s challenges,” he said.
I find this misleading. This stated purpose of the article is to clarify "the faith's position". LDS Family Services issued a 13 page document of concerns. Nowhere in this document is it mentioned that there was a concern that a parent, grandparent, or bishop that is also a licensed therapist might lose their license for actions not related to their professional therapy. I find this unhelpful in clarifying why LDS family Services opposed the proposed rule and is instead an after the fact justification. However, it might just be masterful from a PR perspective. If the church can paint this new rule as possibly infringing on a parent's ability to raise their child as they think best then they might receive more public support. But that is not what LDS Family Services said originally in their comments on 10/15 nor what the Deseret news guest opinion article that defended the church position said on 10/17. Now on 10/23 is the first that we are hearing about any concern that this new rule could restrict the way in which licensed therapists can parent.
“So if a client comes in and says, ‘I identify with this religion and I want to try and have my treatment reflect that,’ ‘I want to abstain from premarital sex’ or ‘I want to abstain from extramarital sex, because that’s part of my religious beliefs,’ under HB399 counselors could counsel to that,” Stephens said. “Under the rule, they cannot.”
I disagree. If a heterosexual wanted help from a therapist to abstain from premarital and extramarital sex there would be no problem with that. Likewise with a homosexual. What church spokesman Marty Stephens does not say here is that married sex, relationships, and intimacy are not an option for LDS homosexual youth. Mr. Stephens makes it seem like the rule would prohibit church counselors from counseling against premarital and extramarital sex. I feel that this is misleading. What I feel would be prohibitted under the proposed rule would be for the therapist to counsel a client to prepair for lifelong celibacy which is really the only option the LDS church currently endorses for gay individuals.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Roy
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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by Roy » 02 Dec 2019, 17:23

https://time.com/5741789/utah-conversio ... y-ban-lds/

Update on this issue. The Utah Governor updated the proposed rule to clarify that patients could still discuss the moral implications of homosexuality or gender dysmorphia with a therapist in context of the patient's religious beliefs.

The LDS Church now supports the rule change. To me, it sounds like the LDS church got the loophole that it wanted. I assume that everything done at LDS family services can be described as in context of the patient's religious beliefs. What do you do when the patient's religious belief may not advance the wellbeing and mental health of the patient.

However, it is still meaningful that this rule change is taking place. May it help protect young people from receiving the kind of "help" that only makes things worse.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 06 Dec 2019, 18:06

I was quite certain the Church didn't support conversion therapy. I have some qualms about the alteration from a purely psychological standpoint, but I understand why it would be important to a lot of people.

I am cool with the compromise and the end result.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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