New Video Format of Temple Endowment

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BJE
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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by BJE » 10 Jun 2019, 16:22

Roy wrote:
10 Jun 2019, 14:49
I love that the sexist elements have been significantly removed from the endowment. That is as close as it gets to changing doctrine. I would be willing to sit through a number of tedious meetings to help bring about that change.
To me it seems they just left out a few words to appease women but the intent of what is said is exactly the same.

Roy
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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by Roy » 10 Jun 2019, 18:04

BJE wrote:
10 Jun 2019, 16:22
Roy wrote:
10 Jun 2019, 14:49
I love that the sexist elements have been significantly removed from the endowment. That is as close as it gets to changing doctrine. I would be willing to sit through a number of tedious meetings to help bring about that change.
To me it seems they just left out a few words to appease women but the intent of what is said is exactly the same.
I disagree and that is ok.

There was a time when women covenanted to obey their husbands as he obeyed the Lord.
Then it was changed to "hearken" to their husbands as he hearkened to the Lord.
Currently both men and women covenant to obey God. There is no intermediary for either gender.
Also in the sealing women used to "give" themselves to their husbands who would receive them. A woman could only give herself once to a single man. A man could hypothetically receive multiple women and this was a major aspect of polygamy. Both genders now "receive" their spouse.

To me these changes are significant changes in the wording of what we understand to be ordinances. We are told that to change ordiances except at God's explicit direction is a grave sin of apostacy. If there is no change in the doctrine but rather that we are changing ordinances simply to "appease" earthly individuals then that would seem to be a problem. The first presidency released a statement that said, “Prophets have taught that there will be no end to such adjustments as directed by the Lord to his servants.” This implies that the most recent changes were the subject of revelation by God.

It is ok to disagree on this matter. It is ok to disagree and both be members in good standing in the church. The fact that we can disagree on this and both be good upstanding members of the church says something IMO.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

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BJE
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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by BJE » 11 Jun 2019, 22:32

I haven’t done the new sealings so I can’t comment on that. However there is a specific place in the endowment where just a few words left out and to me the meaning is unchanged but I don’t feel free to be so specific here as to the wording of the ordinances.

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Heber13
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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by Heber13 » 12 Jun 2019, 10:31

Roy wrote:
10 Jun 2019, 18:04
There was a time when women covenanted to obey their husbands as he obeyed the Lord.
Then it was changed to "hearken" to their husbands as he hearkened to the Lord.
Currently both men and women covenant to obey God. There is no intermediary for either gender.
Also in the sealing women used to "give" themselves to their husbands who would receive them. A woman could only give herself once to a single man. A man could hypothetically receive multiple women and this was a major aspect of polygamy. Both genders now "receive" their spouse.

To me these changes are significant changes in the wording of what we understand to be ordinances.
I agree with you Roy, these are good changes.

Do the women still veil their faces during prayer?
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mom3
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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by mom3 » 12 Jun 2019, 11:06

Do the women still veil their faces during prayer?
No. Not ever. They still put on the hats/veils but they never cover them. I think we should drop the hat/veil thing all together. As usual no one has called to collect my input.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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DarkJedi
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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by DarkJedi » 12 Jun 2019, 12:12

mom3 wrote:
12 Jun 2019, 11:06
Do the women still veil their faces during prayer?
No. Not ever. They still put on the hats/veils but they never cover them. I think we should drop the hat/veil thing all together. As usual no one has called to collect my input.
I'm not trying to be irreverent here, but what would you replace the veil with? I'm sure you've seen what the men wear, and that also seems to serve no purpose and frankly looks a bit ridiculous IMO. (FWIW I'd be OK with a kippah/yarmulke or kufi type headgear if anything at all were required.)

Oh, and just for what it's worth, the no veiling includes when the lady is buried in her temple clothes.
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Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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mom3
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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by mom3 » 12 Jun 2019, 14:31

I'm not trying to be irreverent here, but what would you replace the veil with? I'm sure you've seen what the men wear, and that also seems to serve no purpose and frankly looks a bit ridiculous IMO.
I think all head items should be removed. I am sure there is biblical reasoning for it. But there is tons of biblical stuff we don't do. Symbolic and otherwise.

There has never been a head covering covenant. Robes alone seem adequate to me.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Roy
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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by Roy » 12 Jun 2019, 15:54

BJE wrote:
11 Jun 2019, 22:32
I haven’t done the new sealings so I can’t comment on that. However there is a specific place in the endowment where just a few words left out and to me the meaning is unchanged but I don’t feel free to be so specific here as to the wording of the ordinances.
BJE, I tend to agree with you that 99% of the meaning of the covenants and ordinances is "unchanged" for the man. For the woman receiving her endowment I believe that some of these changes fundamentally alter the understanding of her relationship with God the Father and her relationship with her husband.
Roy wrote:
10 Jun 2019, 18:04
The first presidency released a statement that said, “Prophets have taught that there will be no end to such adjustments as directed by the Lord to his servants.” This implies that the most recent changes were the subject of revelation by God.
There is a statement presented before the endowments ceremony begins that makes an even stronger and much more specific claim to revelation for these changes:
Brothers and sisters, since the temple endowment was first administered in this dispensation occasional adjustments have been made by the First Presidency and the quorum of the Twelve Apostles, acting unitedly in their capacity as prophets, seers, and revelators.
Upon seeking the will of the Lord and after solemn prayer in the upper room of the Salt Lake Temple, the Lord has again revealed inspired adjustments to the temple ceremonies.
These adjustments, which you will notice during your worship experience in the temple today, will bring harmony to the way men and women make covenants with God. They deepen our understanding of His will and His relationship with his daughters and sons.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Holy Cow
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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by Holy Cow » 23 Oct 2019, 09:58

When the endowment changed to no longer require women to veil their faces or to hearken to their husbands as their husbands hearken to God, etc. I was thrilled with the changes. I don't hold a recommend, so I haven't seen the changes personally, but it was one thing that always bothered me. Another was not being able to sit with my wife. I still don't understand why the room has to be split by gender.
Anyway, I was talking with my sister-in-law this week and she said that her husband HATES the changes. When they went through the temple and he heard the changes for the first time, he immediately went to the front desk after the session and complained about it. And he continued to complain about it to the point that the clerk called the temple president to come to the front desk. The two of them (my sister-in-law and her husband) spent an hour in the temple president's office with her husband going back-and-forth with the temple president about this issue. I can only imagine how this must have made her feel having her husband get so upset that she no longer has to promise to hearken directly to him.
This was the first time I'd heard about anybody not liking the changes. Everyone else I've talked with about it has been really excited about the changes.
Has anybody else heard about anybody who was not excited about the updates?
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DarkJedi
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Re: New Video Format of Temple Endowment

Post by DarkJedi » 23 Oct 2019, 10:43

Holy Cow wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 09:58
Has anybody else heard about anybody who was not excited about the updates?
Wow! And, no. I also haven't been since the changes were made but I haven't any negative feedback and I have had a few discussions about it, including one in stake council.

I don't know your relative, of course, but I'm surprised he complained about it in the temple. I'd love to hear what the president said. Either way, it was "above the president's pay grade" so to speak. These changes come from the highest echelons and I'm reasonably sure temple presidents are not part of the process - in other words, they don't make the law, they just enforce it. And since when has complaining to a local leader (and temple presidents are local in this sense, they're not general authorities and their keys are only valid in their temple) done anything to change the church's mind about anything? Perhaps he should address his complaint directly to the Q12/FP, which will likely only get him a referral to his SP where once again he'll be wasting his breath. In short, I pretty much don't get it. And I don't get what his beef is to begin with - that's why I'd love to hear what the TP said.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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