Chosen People

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Kipper
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Chosen People

Post by Kipper » 24 May 2018, 18:39

During GD last week it was mentioned that we were some of the chosen people which made me cringe a little, but then one upstanding fellow spoke up and exclaimed "...remember now, our missionaries are out there teaching that we are chosen people..." That made me pucker up in several different places. I wanted to say that if you're going to say that, say it with a note of caution not to offend or put us all in a place where bad things can happen. Am I paranoid? It may not bother some but it kinda ruined the rest of the day for me. if anything we have chosen to adopt a Christ centered life with covenants and all that goes with it and we have been adopted for that. Sounds like saying we won the tournament because God was with us.

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nibbler
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Re: Chosen People

Post by nibbler » 24 May 2018, 19:20

We had this lesson during SS as well and I hate to report that it had many a Rameumptomesque moment. :(
Kipper wrote:
24 May 2018, 18:39
if anything we have chosen to adopt a Christ centered life with covenants and all that goes with it and we have been adopted for that.
I like this framing much better.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold
-Jesus

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dande48
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Re: Chosen People

Post by dande48 » 24 May 2018, 19:22

Fiddler on the Roof, Tevye wrote:"I know, I know. We are Your chosen people. But, once in a while, can't You choose someone else?"
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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SamBee
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Re: Chosen People

Post by SamBee » 25 May 2018, 08:04

William Norman Ewer once wrote "How odd of God/To choose the Jews."

Someone replied -
"But not so odd/ As those who choose/ A Jewish God/ Yet spurn the Jew"
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Chosen People

Post by Curt Sunshine » 25 May 2018, 08:53

Chosen people rhetoric rises and falls regularly within religions. The New Testament is a great example of that within Christianity, since it went from strictly and exclusively the Jews to those Jews who chose to follow Jesus to anyone who chose to follow Jesus.

Within many religions and denominations it is strict and exclusive ("Only people who believe what we believe are chosen/can be saved."), while others have inclusive, universal wording (Unitarian Universalist, Buddhism, etc.). Mormonism is a fairly unique combination of both ("We are chosen, but potentially so is everyone else who has ever lived - and we have no clue ultimately who will be chosen and who won't be."). We are closer to Catholicism in that regard than to mainstream Protestantism.

There also is a fundamental difference among religions about who does the choosing. There are those that teach God chooses (with the hardcore Calvinist idea that God predestines and the JW interpretation that narrows it to only 144,000 - a small minority of JWs); there are those that teach people choose (which some call a "work" and others don't see as a work); and there are some who don't call it a choice at all but rather just a universal process.

There are those who believe in a one-time choice that lasts forever, those who believe later choices can cancel earlier choices, and, again, those who don't believe in fully free choice at all (because God does it for us: Calvinism, or because choice doesn't matter in the eternal long run: Buddhism).

Mormonism is unique in that it can allow almost all of those views, since almost all of them have been taught to some degree by leaders at some point. I personally lean toward the idea that all people are chosen (symbolized in the War in Heaven narrative that says everyone who is born made a choice to accept God's plan for them) and that God has "all eternity" to make it work in the end.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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DarkJedi
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Re: Chosen People

Post by DarkJedi » 25 May 2018, 11:39

Other than not really believing there are chosen people, the problem I have with us being said chosen people is that it so often leads to pridefulness among some of us. While not always explicitly stated (but it is sometimes explicitly stated) I often hear that we are better than our Christian brothers and sisters (or any other religion) because we are chosen or we are members of the "true church." That is the bad kind of pride.

The other issue I have is the prosperity gospel aspect of being chosen, and what it leads to when people figure it out.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Kipper
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Re: Chosen People

Post by Kipper » 25 May 2018, 12:19

DarkJedi wrote:
25 May 2018, 11:39
Other than not really believing there are chosen people, the problem I have with us being said chosen people is that it so often leads to pridefulness among some of us. While not always explicitly stated (but it is sometimes explicitly stated) I often hear that we are better than our Christian brothers and sisters (or any other religion) because we are chosen or we are members of the "true church." That is the bad kind of pride.

The other issue I have is the prosperity gospel aspect of being chosen, and what it leads to when people figure it out.
This was a great reply to follow curt sunshine who talked about what it means to be chosen. I realize my issue is not the understanding who are chosen and why so much as proclaiming it. It sounds prideful and I think history shows it could lead to bad things. Just my opinion, with a better understanding of all this and my own feelings I can respond with a cautionary tone when I hear or see this happening.

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mom3
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Re: Chosen People

Post by mom3 » 25 May 2018, 12:52

Conversely - my cringe moment with the Chosen People mantra runs along Tevya's line (Thank you Dande). In all of history, "The Chosen" person/people often suffer the most.

I hate suffering. I don't do it well. I run from it when I can. When we sit in class and are pulling our invisible "I am Chosen" shirt I panic. It's a great motivator when we are being driven from Nauvoo, but I really don't want to be a target.

So many religious leaders were killed for being Chosen, whether it was translating scripture, creating scripture, living scripture, etc. Some times they were martyred twice. Bones dug up and reburned to make sure all the remnant was gone.

For me it's a trigger phrase.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Kipper
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Re: Chosen People

Post by Kipper » 25 May 2018, 15:13

mom3 wrote:
25 May 2018, 12:52
Conversely - my cringe moment with the Chosen People mantra runs along Tevya's line (Thank you Dande). In all of history, "The Chosen" person/people often suffer the most.

I hate suffering. I don't do it well. I run from it when I can. When we sit in class and are pulling our invisible "I am Chosen" shirt I panic. It's a great motivator when we are being driven from Nauvoo, but I really don't want to be a target.

So many religious leaders were killed for being Chosen, whether it was translating scripture, creating scripture, living scripture, etc. Some times they were martyred twice. Bones dug up and reburned to make sure all the remnant was gone.

For me it's a trigger phrase.
This is where I was headed.

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mom3
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Re: Chosen People

Post by mom3 » 26 May 2018, 16:31

^^^^^^^^^^^ Kipper - I say we make "Not Chosen" shirts.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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