new here too

Public forum, tell us about yourself and what brings you to StayLDS!
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new here too

Post by bob11 » 30 Jul 2019, 09:23


I have been searching for a home for a while on the Internet, not sure where to go.
I had a faith crisis many decades ago.
I guess I am looking for a place where there is a fundamental faith still intact in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But a place where I am either among people who are advanced in their faith enough to know the issues and are undisturbed to whom I can speak, or among people that have been through faith crises and decided to stay, and who still believe fundamentally, or among those who refuse to mock and are fair-minded even though they no longer believe.
Maybe this is the place for me, or I hope it is. Does this describe this place?
I tried NOM, and found the same essential mockery as I found at MormonDiscussions when I tried that.
I tried MormonDialogue, only to find apologists that were dismissive of ideas that were non-Establishment.
I tried LDS Freedom forum, mostly to find a bunch of energy-healing types or people griping about the Brethren and finding fault, or extreme right-wing Denver-Snuffer-philes. Not interesting.

Do a lot of you hang out at Sunstone or any place like that? Is that where I should be going to physically meet with people that might fit my description above? I don't want to go to FairMormon conference, or other apologist conferences, because those people are not my type, and they are very judgmental of people on their fringes. I tried my hand for a while at being a part of FAIR (now FairMormon) a number of years ago. I tried my hand at trying to be an apologist. But I cared too much about the truth to lie and play evasion tactics to keep people in the faith. That's not to say that a Neo-Apologist type approach cannot be fruitful, but it must be honest, and it must own that it is faith-based, and be honest about that. But I am no longer wanting to be an apologist in the sense of trying to convince people of something. I have always been more interested in research in general on subjects interesting to me than I have been in apologetics anyway. So, while I am still a "every member a missionary" type, and still plan on talking to people about the Church when opportunity arises, I really don't want to concentrate on being an online apologist type anymore.

I still believe fundamentally in the truth claims of the Church, and I feel I am very much still converted. I am more Middle-way-ish or NOM-ish in things on the periphery of the central truth claims. I'm not talking about being NOM-ish about practices. But more about issues on the periphery where I am willing to believe in such things as Evolution, and willing to think and be positive about such things as Libertarian political leanings that are permissive about allowing other people to have their free agency to a large degree in society, such as gambling and consumption of alchohol and weed, without using public policy to get in the way. I do not believe in the theory of governmental licenses to be able to have my rights. For example, while I have a marriage license myself to be obedient to laws of both the Church and State, I believe in having it only to be in good standing with the Church, and the IRS, not because I fundamentally believe in a need for a marriage license from the state. I believe that marriage ought to be either secular and contractual, or religious and contractual, but not license-based. Therefore, a sealing in the temple ought to be enough, not a marriage license. And I believe that people that are secular ought to be able to draw up a contract between themselves and not have to go to the government for permission to be a couple. But as I say, I believe in being obedient, so I am obedient, even though I don't believe in the idea of a license. I believe that people ought to have insurance and an identity card to drive on the road, not a "license." The government has no right to assume that they can tell me whether I can drive or not, unless I am a danger to society.

I believe in the ideals of socialism, such as providing a societal safety net, and providing essential services, and that essential services include free-ride schooling all the way through college, and free health care for all. I believe in confiscation of wealth from people that hoard wealth. In other words, people like Bezos and Soros ought to have their money confiscated by the government and used for the good of society, and left with perhaps one billion a piece, which is reasonable. There ought to be a cap put on the amount of money someone can have, such as like the one billion mark, so they can still be wealthy, but not a danger to a society. Because there comes a time when people have become a danger to society by having too much money and too much power that comes along with that money. And it becomes necessary for society to protect themselves from people like that. And while some right wingers think that people ought to be able to hoard insane amounts of money, because "they earned it," I think that there is something wrong with society not putting a cap on the amount of wealth someone can own. Because it comes to a point where they are hoarding resources that could be used for the good of the rest of society, and leaving them with money capped at one billion or some other arbitrary number leaves them with more money than they could ever spend in a lifetime anyway on normal things.

Is sunstone where people on this board hang out? As I say, looking for a physical place where like minded hang out.

thank you.

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Re: new here too

Post by nibbler » 30 Jul 2019, 11:43

If you're looking for in-person meetups, there's a map tool on mormonspectrum that lists regional/local groups:

We all have beliefs that are unique to us. Here you might find people that hold similar views on apologetics and post-Mormon communities but differing views on the fundamental truth claims of the church. Or similar views on post-Mormon communities and the fundamental truth claims of the church but differing views on apologetics.

Borrowing from Rules and Policies, we try not to convince other people that our beliefs represent the one and only correct belief. Meaning if you believe in the fundamental truth claims of the church you aren't wrong, and someone else isn't wrong if they choose not to believe in them.

The main focus is to help people that want to stay in the church find healthy ways to remain engaged. Now... sometimes people have to work through anger and bitterness. In my opinion anger and bitterness can often be necessary stepping stones towards healing, but here I hope we try to use anger and bitterness as just that, stepping stones; not stones to use to build a more permanent foundation.

We do try to avoid discussing politics. It can be a pretty divisive topic, especially these days. People have very strong opinions that are on both sides of any political debate and that debate is often in the spirit of convincing other people that our (political) beliefs are the correct ones. Ultimately this is a support group for people looking for help staying LDS. Political discussions should be kept to other forums that are more focused on that topic.
He who sits alone, sleeps alone, and walks alone, who is strenuous and subdues himself alone, will find delight in the solitude of the forest.
— Buddha

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Re: new here too

Post by bob11 » 30 Jul 2019, 12:47

got it. thanks

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Re: new here too

Post by DarkJedi » 30 Jul 2019, 17:20

Nibbler's response was great and I don't have much to add. My assessment of the other sites you mentioned is very similar to your assessment. Being that we are spread out in the US and Canada with a few in Europe, face to face meet ups are not especially feasible. Some of us have been to Sunstone, and I mostly like Sunstone stuff but going there doesn't normally fit my schedule.

You are welcome here, this is a safe and comfy place to share thoughts and ideas, and there are people with belief and testimony to yours. There also people with belief and testimony different from yours but who want the same thing - acceptance.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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Re: new here too

Post by Minyan Man » 30 Jul 2019, 17:30

Thank you for sharing your story & introduction. Our lives are all similar but different too.
Keep coming back.

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Re: new here too

Post by Roy » 31 Jul 2019, 09:47

Hi Bob,
I would love to hear more of your story. You had a FC many decades ago? What was it that broke your faith? How did you deal with it? Were there any supports? Where did you land in your faith and how has that impacted your ability to interface with your ward, friends, and family with a more traditional LDS viewpoint?
I believe that this is a safe place for you to rest as long as you need. I came here in a pretty broken state about 10 years ago (faith crisis and grief combo). I feel that I am healed now (with some leftover scars to show for it). I stay to help others and to have an outlet to share thoughts and experiences. I have a need to be heard.
bob11 wrote:
30 Jul 2019, 09:23
I still believe fundamentally in the truth claims of the Church, and I feel I am very much still converted. I am more Middle-way-ish or NOM-ish in things on the periphery of the central truth claims. I'm not talking about being NOM-ish about practices.
My wife has a faith structure where the LDS priesthood is real and the priesthood ordinances are effective at binding us together and to God. Everything else can be peripheral. JS, BY, and others could have been completely wrong about polygamy. BY could have been wrong about denying blacks access to priesthood and temple. SWK, DHO, and others could be wrong about our persecution of and/or failure to embrace gay LDS members within our congregations. But in the end the power of the priesthood is real and effective to bind families together and to God.

My uncle has a faith structure where the church is learning, growing, and improving. It is always doing the best that it can at any particular time but it is gradually moving closer to perfection. The church also can make mistakes and go down dead end roads at times. Taking the long view the church will course correct and get back on the right path again. This view has God/Christ leading the church through subtle nudges over the course of generations and not micro-managing. This view draws somewhat from "Wrong Roads" by JRH and the concept of the "continuing restoration" that has been introduced by Elder Uchtdorf. In this view both sudden changes and long incrimental changes will eventually get us where we want to go.

I like both of those approaches because they leave room for lots of stuff to be wrong in the church but still have the church be "true" in the core.

As for government stuff. I feel that large groups of people need to have rules in order to get along. I feel that the United States tries to strike a balance between the common good without unjustly infringing upon the individual. In the details, I am sure there are lots of different permutations and compromises that would get the job done and some ways are likely better than others.

I think most people can agree that societies should have programs in place to care for the most disadvantaged and vulnerable among us. We do not want the widow and the orphan to starve. People can legitimately disagree on how to go about that but I think it is helpful to understand where we agree as a starting point.

Welcome! I hope to hear more from you.

"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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