Struggling

Public forum, tell us about yourself and what brings you to StayLDS!
Dkormond
Posts: 8
Joined: 16 Oct 2017, 21:15

Re: Struggling

Post by Dkormond » 19 Oct 2017, 21:26

One last clarification/elucidation. I'll share the story because I hope for insight. As I said I work with children. I have a family I work with where dad was abusive. The mother divulged the abuse to her bishop. The bishop told the Stake President who called the father. The father went home and sodomized the mom and beat her in retaliation. Years ago my ex assaulted me in front of our children. I filed for a protective order. My bishop called me when he found out. At our next court hearing, to my surprise, my bishop was there to testify against me and divulged our conversation. I contacted my Stake President and the church and the next thing I knew I was receiving letters from The church's attorneys demanding that I not contact any more church authorities regarding the incident. I never received anything close to an apology from the church or the local leaders. I see similar events to this regularly in my work. Perhaps all of my skepticism is just anger.


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LookingHard
Posts: 2781
Joined: 20 Oct 2014, 12:11

Re: Struggling

Post by LookingHard » 20 Oct 2017, 07:27

Dkormond - that is wrong wrong wrong. Keeping silent won't fix the problem.

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SilentDawning
Posts: 6563
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Struggling

Post by SilentDawning » 20 Oct 2017, 08:29

Dkormond wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 20:50
Thanks everyone. Do you feel like denying your truth has a long term negative affect on your soul?


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Not so long as I can post here. I think it would be very difficult to live the life I do if I didn't have this community. It allows me to share my thoughts with others without consequence, to receive a certain amount of validation when validation is due, check my descent into antagonism (appears to have been successful -- I was moderated a few times in the beginning).

If you can learn to compartmentalize your thoughts here, while savoring the joy out of the family, what joy you can find in the church (it can exist), as well as other new areas of your life you discover (in my case, service to the community), there can be relative peace. Occasionally problems arise when unorthodox and orthodox perspectives collide, but it can be a relatively peaceful existence full of increased joy....

But even TBM would cause blips in the peace train, so I feel I am at least as well off as when I was TBM.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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SilentDawning
Posts: 6563
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Struggling

Post by SilentDawning » 20 Oct 2017, 08:44

Dkormond wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 21:26
One last clarification/elucidation. I'll share the story because I hope for insight. As I said I work with children. I have a family I work with where dad was abusive. The mother divulged the abuse to her bishop. The bishop told the Stake President who called the father. The father went home and sodomized the mom and beat her in retaliation.

Years ago my ex assaulted me in front of our children. I filed for a protective order. My bishop called me when he found out. At our next court hearing, to my surprise, my bishop was there to testify against me and divulged our conversation. I contacted my Stake President and the church and the next thing I knew I was receiving letters from The church's attorneys demanding that I not contact any more church authorities regarding the incident. I never received anything close to an apology from the church or the local leaders. I see similar events to this regularly in my work. Perhaps all of my skepticism is just anger.
I can relate totally. I too was wronged by the church on a quasi legal matter. It required an apology and we got this convoluted statement that MIGHT be construed as an apology, but it was full of weasle words meant to deflect liability. Bureucracy sent is ping ponging like any government agency.

I had another situation with a SP who told me to stay at home from a mission because the Ward was in debt, and he was a first class JERK about it when I found a work around. I found myself sold out by the church as soon as their legal or financial interests were at risk. History shows they do tend to reverse doctrine and policy when temporal interests are at stake.

I started wondering if all this talk about spirituality and eternity was for Sunday, while any commitment to our values were the first to be sacrificed on the altar of legality and church-self-protection. Honestly. That's what it looked like.

In short, the church is NOT a great resource for solving personal, family, marital, or legal problems. They are loyal to their own interests and the organization first when the issues are hardcore. Even leaders are loyal to their personal reputations with their higher ups than they are to our long-term values and even the members when the temporal and spiritual conflict. Apologies come VERY slowly, perhaps due to the fact they are a rich source of cash for a liability law suit. I am not saying they are dishonest -- no. But I am saying that they can leave you out in the cold in your time of need. Seen it and experienced it many times on non-financial matters. It's a consistent pattern in my life.

Add to that, the volunteer nature of the leaders who interact with 99% of the rank and file membership. Therefore, you don't get quality advice when you need it unless the leader happens to have professional or significant life experience in that area -- .particularly since LDS Social Services is usually booked up to the seams.

So where does this leave us? It's a place to attend to keep your family relationships intact. It's a place to contribute to the well-being of others in day-to-day, non legal, non hardcore ways -- limit your help to advising them to get professional help. Serve others within the parameters you can stand. Enjoy the positive benefits of the church, the fact that it does attract good people to the rank and file, and it it's a good place for youth when things are working properly.

I hope this helps....

I like a modification of the beatitudes, which I will call the "StayAttitudes".

"Blessed is s/he who expects nothing from the LDS Church, for s/he shall not be disappointed".

As far as anger goes -- yes!!! I felt very angry at being so unjustly treated, all while paying tithing and serving with my heart. Time will probably abate the anger. Learning not to poke the bear helps -- I addressed that above, implying that sharing personal problems with local leaders isn't a productive move most of the time.

I feel that reclaiming your belief, setting boundaries, and finding your own way within Mormonism, even if not mainstream is a great antidote to anger.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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LookingHard
Posts: 2781
Joined: 20 Oct 2014, 12:11

Re: Struggling

Post by LookingHard » 20 Oct 2017, 09:23

SilentDawning wrote:
20 Oct 2017, 08:29
Dkormond wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 20:50
Thanks everyone. Do you feel like denying your truth has a long term negative affect on your soul?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not so long as I can post here. I think it would be very difficult to live the life I do if I didn't have this community.
For me this site has been invaluable, but it isn't working for me long term. But I am very grateful for this site and the folks here. It helped me from exploding out of the church and damaging relationships. There is some great wisdom here.

And having watched this site and others, I have seen a trend that tells me I am not alone. MANY people come for a while and eventually feel they have to be more "honest" and say, "I don't believe."

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dande48
Posts: 634
Joined: 24 Jan 2016, 16:35
Location: Wherever there is danger

Re: Struggling

Post by dande48 » 20 Oct 2017, 10:01

Welcome, Dkormond! Happy to have you with us.

I think we share a lot of the same issues with the Church. Both science and Church history (or religious history in general) is dismissed by the Church (and most religions in general), because it's damaging to their cause. It's pretty obvious to me that "revelation" is a terrible predictor of things as they were, are, and will be. The religious have too often been outraged at scientific advancement, whether it's the discovery that the world is flat, that each star is it's own sun with its own planet, that creatures in "God's perfect creation" can go extinct... the list goes on. Western Religions cannot admit they are wrong, because it would ruin their credibility. As a result, they deny for as long as they can, and then either reframe the prophecy, or dismiss it as "personal opinion", to keep their claims to "truth". It's not a healthy way to live.

Dkormond wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 21:26
One last clarification/elucidation. I'll share the story because I hope for insight. As I said I work with children. I have a family I work with where dad was abusive. The mother divulged the abuse to her bishop. The bishop told the Stake President who called the father. The father went home and sodomized the mom and beat her in retaliation. Years ago my ex assaulted me in front of our children. I filed for a protective order. My bishop called me when he found out. At our next court hearing, to my surprise, my bishop was there to testify against me and divulged our conversation. I contacted my Stake President and the church and the next thing I knew I was receiving letters from The church's attorneys demanding that I not contact any more church authorities regarding the incident. I never received anything close to an apology from the church or the local leaders. I see similar events to this regularly in my work. Perhaps all of my skepticism is just anger.
That's MESSED UP! I've known a couple of men in similar situations. Whether in the the Church courts or matters of law, there is EXTREME sexism against men. I also feel like with many Church leaders, their "Mandate of Heaven" goes to their head. Whatever they do and however they feel is inspired; and as a result, they struggle to empathize and to THINK before they act. When it comes to trust, you've got to be able to trust the individual and not the position. Being "called by revelation" is honestly a pretty poor credential.

I still have hope; the Church has many wonderful qualities and teaches many nobel truths. Despite all it's shenanigans, I still love it very much. It can change, and absolutely will in order to survive. But because of the way it is organized, run, and a few key paradigms it holds, change take a VERY long time to happen. We just need to be patient, I think.
"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy. "
-Albert Campus

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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SilentDawning
Posts: 6563
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Struggling

Post by SilentDawning » 20 Oct 2017, 11:13

LookingHard wrote:
20 Oct 2017, 09:23
For me this site has been invaluable, but it isn't working for me long term. But I am very grateful for this site and the folks here. It helped me from exploding out of the church and damaging relationships. There is some great wisdom here.

And having watched this site and others, I have seen a trend that tells me I am not alone. MANY people come for a while and eventually feel they have to be more "honest" and say, "I don't believe."
For some reason, this has worked for me long term. Can you tell me why it's not working for you long term LookingHard? I am interested in understanding why it works for some people long term, and not for others.

I also wonder what people who "come out" with their unbelief end up doing with their lives afterwards, as they don't post here very much -- so there is very little closure.

I know that AmateurParent came out, and doesn't attend, and no longer considers herself a Mormon, but she has retained her membership -- but how is it going with life in general? Spirituality? Family who are still in the church? These are the things we rarely hear about and that I would find interesting. Same with TurinTurnabar (I think I have his username wrong). He came here trying to stay given same sex attraction and then decided it didn't work, so we rarely hear from him.

The thing about StayLDS is we're interested in a long term relationship here online even if the member of the forum decides to break ties with the church. It's not like relationships at church where you fade away after you stop coming. There is ongoing interest in how it's going -- a least, from my perspective.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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Beefster
Posts: 479
Joined: 04 Aug 2017, 18:38

Re: Struggling

Post by Beefster » 21 Oct 2017, 13:48

Dkormond wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 21:26
Years ago my ex assaulted me in front of our children. I filed for a protective order. My bishop called me when he found out. At our next court hearing, to my surprise, my bishop was there to testify against me and divulged our conversation.
I'm simply appalled at your bishop's handling of the situation. That goes well beyond the seriousness of the leadership roullette problems I have personally dealt with. I think it's incredibly sad (and sexist) that your bishop sided with your wife. Our society simply does not take female on male domestic abuse seriously.

There are bad leaders in the church and there are BAD leaders in the church. I am so sorry you had to deal with what you did.

This all really puts you between a rock and a hard place. I hope you can find peace and direction here.
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

Often I hear doubt being presented as the opposite of faith but I think certainty does a better job of filling that role. Doubts can help faith grow, certainty almost always makes faith shrink. --nibbler

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LookingHard
Posts: 2781
Joined: 20 Oct 2014, 12:11

Re: Struggling

Post by LookingHard » 22 Oct 2017, 04:29

SilentDawning wrote:
20 Oct 2017, 11:13
LookingHard wrote:
20 Oct 2017, 09:23
For me this site has been invaluable, but it isn't working for me long term. But I am very grateful for this site and the folks here. It helped me from exploding out of the church and damaging relationships. There is some great wisdom here.

And having watched this site and others, I have seen a trend that tells me I am not alone. MANY people come for a while and eventually feel they have to be more "honest" and say, "I don't believe."
For some reason, this has worked for me long term. Can you tell me why it's not working for you long term LookingHard? I am interested in understanding why it works for some people long term, and not for others.
Let me think on that just a bit and get back with a bit more thought.

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Holy Cow
Posts: 262
Joined: 10 Nov 2014, 17:07
Location: Las Vegas

Re: Struggling

Post by Holy Cow » 22 Oct 2017, 09:46

Dkormond, Welcome to the club!
I think there are a lot of people who can relate to feeling like they need to stay for the social implications. It can be hard to leave when you know that it would impact relationships that you value. But, you've found an understanding group of people here, and I hope you can find some peace in being able to share your thoughts here.
I also wonder what people who "come out" with their unbelief end up doing with their lives afterwards, as they don't post here very much -- so there is very little closure.
SD, this is an interesting thought. I know I've found myself posting less and less as time goes on, even though I still check the site once or twice every day. For me, going public has opened up other sources of support. I'm very open about my lack of faith in different issues with my family, friends, and church members. I've talked about it in sacrament meeting, sunday school, priesthood meeting. I have lunches with my EQ President on a fairly regular basis, where we talk about our different viewpoints of various gospel topics. He knows I have very little faith in most Mormon-specific doctrines, but he still asked me to teach a lesson in EQ when the regular teacher was gone. So, finding other sources to talk about things has diminished the need to seek support here.
In the beginning, this site is the only thing that kept me in the church. I would have left without the support I found here. But, as my faith has changed, I now find that I have a stronger relationship with God, completely independent from the church. So, when I see posts about problems with church leaders (local or top leaders), church culture, church history, church doctrines/rules, etc., those posts don't speak to me the way they used to. I've come to a point where I don't really care what church leaders say, or what the church teaches, or what happened in the church's history. I follow Christ's gospel, not the church. The church can go in any direction it wants; I go my own way. Cutting the church out as a mediator between myself and God has taken all of the power away from the church that I used to give it.
My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6139

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