Always thankful and SO confused . . . .

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nibbler
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Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe

Re: Always thankful and SO confused . . . .

Post by nibbler » 23 Aug 2017, 05:31

I was speaking mostly to a leader's motivations.

"We'll get them to pay tithing by telling them that they will burn at the second coming and they can avoid being burned if they pay tithing because tithing is fire insurance. Muahahaha."

vs.

"I'm worried they will burn at the second coming unless they pay tithing. Tithing is fire insurance so I'll make it a point to warn them of the dangers and what they need to do to avoid them."

Both scenarios prey on people's fears and both produce similar results (people paying tithing) but for me it was a question of the motivations behind invoking people's fears. Benefits for me vs. benefits for them/us.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Always thankful and SO confused . . . .

Post by DarkJedi » 23 Aug 2017, 07:07

I do think that some leaders are motivated by the first example, but agree that most are not. It could be argued Lorenzo Snow was so motivated because the church was in deep deep financial doo-doo at the time and he could see that paying tithing would solve the problem. How to get people to do so was the other problem, which he apparently solved by promising the blessing of rain if they paid tithing. The flip side of that argument is if they didn't pay tithing it wouldn't rain - resulting in fear. (Caveats: I'm not sure how historically accurate the Snow/tithing story is beyond the doo-doo, and I do not believe President Snow to be an evil fear-mongerer.)

The second example is much more common, I think, and there is a bit of a conundrum there. When is someone just stating a "fact" (eg quoting scripture) or describing reality or warning out of love as opposed to fear mongering? The D&C does say we will burn if we don't pay tithing. It also says we can't be saved without doing the work for our dead and many other things. This is indeed something I have been giving some thought to in light of Pres. Uchtdorf's comments and I have not come up with an answer other than almost all of the things used to induce fear like the examples I just gave come from modern revelation or modern speakers (giving the caveat that the most well known fear is that if someone isn't baptized they can't go to heaven - which seems to be debatable even within the NT). For the time being and for myself I have decided to only use those scriptures that promise blessings for doing something as opposed to those that promise punishment for not doing something. That of course does not prevent others in our three hour block from doing any kind of fact stating or warning - and that's just something I'm still learning to deal with.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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SilentDawning
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Re: Always thankful and SO confused . . . .

Post by SilentDawning » 23 Aug 2017, 08:14

Welcome -- looking forward to your questions and issues posted here.

I am on the cusp of the empty nest syndrome you are experiencing with respect to your church relationship. I have experienced my own version of what you said in your introduction -- that situation when you realize you no longer have an interest in something that was at one time, even your greatest passion.

Happening to me with music now. 150 gigs after my initial vision of myself as a semi-pro musician, I find myself not enjoying it as much anymore. Same with other projects I pursued, conquered, and then felt the need for new horizons.

I am really looking forward to your posts as I think this syndrome you are experiencing is not unique to church experience, but to certain personalities like mine in general -- regarding hobbies, jobs, projects, and yes, church work.

Welcome!!
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

Roy
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Re: Always thankful and SO confused . . . .

Post by Roy » 23 Aug 2017, 14:01

For my own mother she seemed to lose interest in attending as we kids left the nest. My father was a merchant marine on the high seas. This meant that my mother was often alone in dragging us 5 kids to church on Sundays. She did the best she could to encourage us in scouts, duty to God award, YW medallion and much much more.

I believe that a large part of her motivation was to go for us. To be a good example, to raise us up right, and to establish a forever family. She continued plugging away long after she was tired and perhaps not receiving any personal spiritual benefit.

I believe with us children grown she just does not want to go. I never remember her having any particular friendships through the church - so I do not believe that she was getting fed socially. Nor do I believe that our lessons are particularly intellectually or spiritually stimulating for someone who has attended them week in and week out for 50+ years. I think she may have burnt out.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Roy
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Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Always thankful and SO confused . . . .

Post by Roy » 23 Aug 2017, 14:21

Lovemylife17 wrote:
22 Aug 2017, 13:14
If I'm honest with myself and look back on my "why" for going through the temple, and at that time it WAS out of "fear" of NOT being a family after we die and a mother to the children I was blessed to raise on this earth, not necessarily because I believed in everything I was being taught.
{snip}
I have so much more I want to share and ask . . . should I start a post in "support"? I just don't want to post in the wrong place, I'm new, haha!
Shae
I believe I have been able to partially dispel my fear by letting go (partially) of my sense of control. I do not feel that I can guarantee myself a particular outcome (especially in the afterlife). I am therefore contenting myself with just being me. God knows me and will place me wherever He, in his infinite wisdom, sees most appropriate. I am learning to place the future of my afterlife into his hands.

As for posting, I suppose it depends on the subject. Support, General, or History/Doctrine.

Welcome to the ward! :wave:
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Lovemylife17
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Joined: 18 Aug 2017, 09:23

Re: Always thankful and SO confused . . . .

Post by Lovemylife17 » 24 Aug 2017, 13:25

Thank you, everyone, for the warm welcome and comments. I have been reading like CRAZY in all of the different forums, I'm like a kid in a candy shop going from one story to the next! It's confirming feelings that I was already having and it helps to know that there are others that feel like we are all going to be OKAY! Whew, haha!

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Heber13
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Re: Always thankful and SO confused . . . .

Post by Heber13 » 25 Aug 2017, 06:36

Lovemylife17 wrote:
24 Aug 2017, 13:25
Thank you, everyone, for the warm welcome and comments. I have been reading like CRAZY in all of the different forums, I'm like a kid in a candy shop going from one story to the next! It's confirming feelings that I was already having and it helps to know that there are others that feel like we are all going to be OKAY! Whew, haha!
:thumbup:
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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