Trying to find a happy medium...

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Heber13
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Location: In the Middle

Re: Trying to find a happy medium...

Post by Heber13 » 30 Mar 2017, 11:30

NotYourMollyMormon wrote:
29 Mar 2017, 19:37
As an adult, I was more lax with the interpretation (I would drink tea, coffee sometimes, drink alcohol) and would still go to church sporadically. However my mother shared what I was doing with the bishop, and I was put on probation and then disfellowshipped (this cycle kept repeating itself a few times).
Ugh. That is rough.

Factors I can see to work through...

1) Mom
2) Bishop - has that changed? Not all bishops will handle things the same way, but clearly your experience is going to impact how you handle this going forward
3) WoW teaching - personal interpretation vs church rules

For factor#3, studying things out in my mind on the subject...honestly looking at what the issue is and what the teachings are to understand them, and asking God what he cares about for me, getting my own personal revelation and interpretation on the subject...that is important to me.

I like how you are looking for that happy medium, and letting go of extreme black and white positions on the subject.

It may not be your view (#3), you may have it OK between you and God. The trick may be #2, and how to navigate honestly and peacefully with others in the church who have different views. That takes practice to stay honest about it, without not making it more difficult than it needs to be...not revealing more than necessary.

IDK. I'm just sharing thoughts. It sounds like you are working thought it. I think there is a happy medium.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

NotYourMollyMormon
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Joined: 22 Mar 2017, 18:01

Re: Trying to find a happy medium...

Post by NotYourMollyMormon » 30 Mar 2017, 15:41

DarkJedi wrote:
29 Mar 2017, 20:58
NotYourMollyMormon wrote:
29 Mar 2017, 19:37
So to answer the second part of your question - YES. I am sure I don't HAVE to, but I feel like I NEED to for some reason.. like I feel guilty if I don't because I feel like I am lying...I shouldn't feel that way but I do...
This. You already get that the WoW is not a commandment and therefore breaking it is not a sin. (I am sorry for your experience of being disfellowshipped over the WoW - I can't imagine that happening here and now.) I think you also recognize that there is a difference in the church and the gospel. With those two things in mind, letting go of the guilt is amazingly freeing.
Yea it was not a fun time - I was part of a very small branch and everyone kind of sort of knew what was going on :thumbdown:

And my goal is to ultimately not feel that guilt anymore. I think I am getting closer to that point these days which is good (plus the convos in this forum have helped me out too)

NotYourMollyMormon
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Re: Trying to find a happy medium...

Post by NotYourMollyMormon » 30 Mar 2017, 15:49

hawkgrrrl wrote:
29 Mar 2017, 21:18
Welcome to the forum! I'm a fellow NE gal (went to HS outside Philly, but lived in South Jersey for 1.5 yrs also), but much older than you are.

Talking about drinking, early in my marriage, I discovered that my GP in-law occasionally drank beer, and I was shocked and surprised because they were pretty devout LDS, but I also learned a few things from that: 1) the WoW is viewed quite differently by older generations, even in Utah, even in multi-gen Mormon families, because it wasn't always the thing it is now, 2) it's not a "confessing sin"--so really it's up to you what you do with it--you don't have to talk to your bishop, and 3) I've learned over time that other sects of Mormonism interpret it all very differently, and oh yeah 4) D&C 89 doesn't actually say what we say it says. Personally, I don't drink (I have a high tolerance, but it gives me insomnia), but I also don't think it's a big deal either. Being the only sober person with drunk people, like at a work event--yeah, that is no fun either. But not because I want to join them.

Unfortunately, I do think your characterization of church culture is more or less accurate which is a shame.
Hello my fellow NE! lol I have yet to go to philly but I have tons of family in jersey and visit here and there

Thanks for sharing what you have learned! you make great points. In my research I did notice the same things - it gave me a little peace of mind lol

And yes (full disclaimer) - not saying what I went through happens all the time and to everyone (and hey I could be all wrong about it), but that was my experience. Wish it were better but alas...

NotYourMollyMormon
Posts: 25
Joined: 22 Mar 2017, 18:01

Re: Trying to find a happy medium...

Post by NotYourMollyMormon » 30 Mar 2017, 16:19

Heber13 wrote:
30 Mar 2017, 11:30
NotYourMollyMormon wrote:
29 Mar 2017, 19:37
As an adult, I was more lax with the interpretation (I would drink tea, coffee sometimes, drink alcohol) and would still go to church sporadically. However my mother shared what I was doing with the bishop, and I was put on probation and then disfellowshipped (this cycle kept repeating itself a few times).
Ugh. That is rough.

Factors I can see to work through...

1) Mom
2) Bishop - has that changed? Not all bishops will handle things the same way, but clearly your experience is going to impact how you handle this going forward
3) WoW teaching - personal interpretation vs church rules

For factor#3, studying things out in my mind on the subject...honestly looking at what the issue is and what the teachings are to understand them, and asking God what he cares about for me, getting my own personal revelation and interpretation on the subject...that is important to me.

I like how you are looking for that happy medium, and letting go of extreme black and white positions on the subject.

It may not be your view (#3), you may have it OK between you and God. The trick may be #2, and how to navigate honestly and peacefully with others in the church who have different views. That takes practice to stay honest about it, without not making it more difficult than it needs to be...not revealing more than necessary.

IDK. I'm just sharing thoughts. It sounds like you are working thought it. I think there is a happy medium.

Wow you are pretty spot on!

1. My mom and I had a very strained relationship ... it developed while I was growing up and church was intertwined in all that

We have been trying to rebuild our relationship, however, because she is the only active member in my family, I tend to overshare what I am going through (especially when it is church related), but then she pulls these stunts and tells the church leaders in her stake (who I grew up with) and I get very upset with her... I have been trying my best to reduce or restrict what I share with her on purpose so that she has less things to run to the bishop and SP about. Luckily I don't live with her anymore, but she still finds a way to run her mouth. Sadly this cycle has been repeating itself since my teens and only now am I having more control over the situation.

The other issue is that she makes very snarky remarks about my behavior when it comes to church:

"The rate you are going, who in their right mind at church would marry someone as disobedient as you are. The only hope you have is a non member who is (insert mediocre characteristics here)"
"Are you really going to wear that? What will people think of you at church" (mind you my garments are completely covered)
"You know that contains caffeine in it right? In the WoW it says you can't consume that and you won't be worthy"
"You are my last hope out of all my kids to be saved in the latter days since your siblings left the church. Please don't do (insert whatever sin/transgression here) because I don't want to be alone in the after life."

This is what I grew up with. I don't listen to any of that nonsense anymore (thank goodness!), but she still makes comments like that to me all of the time smh

2. The bishop(s) I was referring to in my post were from my early adulthood so I don't deal with them anymore. My current bishop is nice, but I am not that comfortable talking to him about many things. However, he always tells me "you don't have to tell me everything, but as long as you say you are doing fine that is okay." He just takes my word for it. Idk what his views are with much - I just know that he is really big on consistent attendance to church

3. And yea I am taking a step at a time. I am glad you all have shared your thoughts on the matter because it forces me to think outside the box and to reevaluate my thoughts. I think I will get to a good place about it sooner than later

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mom3
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Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: Trying to find a happy medium...

Post by mom3 » 30 Mar 2017, 19:25

Welcome. You have plenty of advice to work with. I am sending hugs.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

NotYourMollyMormon
Posts: 25
Joined: 22 Mar 2017, 18:01

Re: Trying to find a happy medium...

Post by NotYourMollyMormon » 30 Mar 2017, 20:02

mom3 wrote:
30 Mar 2017, 19:25
Welcome. You have plenty of advice to work with. I am sending hugs.


Awwww thank you ! I love hugs! Thanks for the support :D

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SilentDawning
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Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Trying to find a happy medium...

Post by SilentDawning » 31 Mar 2017, 07:29

Welcome! I can relate to some of what you feel, particularly not totally buying into the culture. Welcome to the forum, and thanks for finally posting something after so much lurking. I agree this is a good place to talk about unorthodoxy without being too overly negative or morphing into an Anti-Mormon.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

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Heber13
Posts: 6489
Joined: 22 Apr 2009, 16:37
Location: In the Middle

Re: Trying to find a happy medium...

Post by Heber13 » 31 Mar 2017, 07:55

I'm very glad to hear you have been able to break away from your mom that treated you that way.

Out from under that, I think the Lord is guiding you on how to build yourself up in mature and healthy ways.

Focus on the gospel of Christ and seek love and peace in your heart. The rest takes care of itself.

Thanks for posting here. I look forward to learning from your posts.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Beefster
Posts: 216
Joined: 04 Aug 2017, 18:38

Re: Trying to find a happy medium...

Post by Beefster » 04 Aug 2017, 22:42

Sorry, I kind of skipped over the rest of the discussion. Hopefully I'm not being redundant or anything.
NotYourMollyMormon wrote:
23 Mar 2017, 18:36
I had been living in Utah for 3 years and decided I couldn’t take it anymore
I know the feeling. Utah is a strange place full of strange people with funny, judgmental, and self-righteous ideas. I'd rather raise my future family in a literal war zone than in Utah.
I can also relate to leaving the singles ward. I've been going with my parents to my family ward lately since the singles ward is so bad. It annoys me how church gets turned into a meat market.

Your thoughts on the WoW are intriguing to me. It reminded me of an elderly, inactive former bishop I regularly visited on my mission. His wife would drink coffee for health reasons (she had a condition which was helped by caffeine and coffee was the most straightforward way to get it.) He believed that the WoW should have never been made into a TR question. While I've never really had an issue with it personally, I can see where he was coming from and sort of agree. It may have been pragmatic when it was implemented, but it often acts as a barrier to entry for new members and a point of judgement to returning members.

I definitely agree that it is wildly open to interpretation. I also find it weird how it's cherry-picked when it comes to TR interviews. The MTC serves way more than "sparingly" amount of meat in the cafeteria, but we don't see that revoking any TRs. It's odd that we've pretty much conflated WoW to mean "don't smoke, drink alcohol, coffee, or tea, or do drugs" when that makes up so little of the actual content of D&C 89, which was not a commandment in the first place.
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

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DarkJedi
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Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Trying to find a happy medium...

Post by DarkJedi » 05 Aug 2017, 04:14

I agree with what you say, Beefster and I often say the main reason I wouldn't want to live in Utah is because there are too many Mormons. But, there are many very good people there as well.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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