Religion Trauma Syndrome?

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N’oublie Pas
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Joined: 21 Jun 2015, 09:48

Re: Religion Trauma Syndrome?

Post by N’oublie Pas » 24 Jun 2015, 13:46

SilentDawning:
" The "I was led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand the things I should do" -- all these things are red flags in my view."
I agree completely. Thank you for your perspective. :) And personally, I don't think God would like us to do what He believes is best for us just because of "blind obedience." It doesn't seem authentic and that we are really putting our thought and heart into it.

Ray DeGraw:

Thank you! :) I will look into that.

Holy Cow:

Thank you for the book suggestion! :)

Heber13:
"Just so you know, from a guy's perspective...unequal marriage sounds awful to me as well. It doesn't feel right to me, and I have a hard time making sense of that in the eternities. I just can't fathom it."
That was really really comforting to hear. Thank you. :) And it's never made sense to me that I couldn't go directly to God. Isn't that what we do in our personal prayers anyway? I mean, everyone including myself makes many mistakes, so I wouldn't want to put my trust "in the flesh," so to speak. I'm not meaning that in a minimizing way to anyone, of course. But it would be so comforting to hear that I have equal access to God in the temple versus needing to go through someone, even if it is someone who I care for and love very much...

Minyan Man
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Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 13:40

Re: Religion Trauma Syndrome?

Post by Minyan Man » 24 Jun 2015, 17:39

SamBee wrote:
How do you go through the endowment and sealing without feeling like God really hates His daughters?
First off, I don't think it is as bad as it looks. There is a lot of stuff in the temple which is male-dominated, but on the positive side, women take part in all temple rituals (I believe they play a more important part in the second anointing), and the only places a woman can't really go as a patron in the temple are the male changing rooms, which is fair enough.
Another thing is: the initiatory work for the Sisters is done by other Sisters. There was a time that I thought it was performed the male Priesthood. I think the Sisters have more power then we give them credit for. (or, I give them credit for.)

Ann
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Re: Religion Trauma Syndrome?

Post by Ann » 24 Jun 2015, 18:07

Finding out about the second anointing only deepened my temple crisis.

Given our polygamous past and the awful quotable quotes from our past leaders, it doesn't work for me to talk about the temple's symbolism, words not having their plain meaning, sexism and condescension not being actual hate, etc. I think the temple can be reasonably taken as an example of old-school male chauvinism, even though it had - particularly for its time - some new and expansive ideas.

That was then; this is now. It needs to change. If not, I think a lot of women will just quit going. The words women hear in the temple matter. I really want to know. Do our leaders think these words are music to a modern woman's ears?

I don't think most LDS men are comfortable with the temple wording when they take notice of it.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Religion Trauma Syndrome?

Post by hawkgrrrl » 24 Jun 2015, 18:18

Ann wrote:The words women hear in the temple matter. I really want to know. Do our leaders think these words are music to a modern woman's ears? I don't think most LDS men are comfortable with the temple wording when they take notice of it.
I'm forced to conclude: 1) the men in charge don't listen to it from a woman's perspective (and why would they when most women ignore it), 2) there are enough leaders who believe life should be misery who think women should just suck it up, 3) there are some who misguidedly think polygamy is eternal, 4) they think only feminists are bothered by it and that the church would be better off without them. I'm guessing all 4 apply partly.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Religion Trauma Syndrome?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 24 Jun 2015, 18:30

Most people who don't take notice of the wording aren't bothered by it, and many write off the wording as not relevant today, since they persoanlly have great, equal marriages. I honestly don't think any of the top leadership don't care. They seem to be trying to change things in many ways to give women more voice in the Church.

I think the issue is one or both of the following:

1) They simply don't understand the depth of disconnect and discomfort felt by many women, since they personally don't see the same implications in the wording;
2) They see the enormity and difficulty of making wholesale changes to something so many members view as practically inerrant and are making incremental changes as quickly as they feel the root can handle it, without touching initially the words themselves.

Many things have been removed from the endowment over time, but it is easier to remove something than to make changes to something like the script itself - which is what I think would be best. For example, it is easier to make Eve more physically and emotionally active and to portray more involvement and a more central, influential, deciding role in that way (which the new films do very obviously) than to give her new lines or change the script to include her more directly. I actually believe the latter approach will be taken in the future, and I wish I believed it would be sooner than I think it will be.

That doesn't help some people now, but I really do believe it, based on the totality of what I have seen with the current FP.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

NonTraditionalMom
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Re: Religion Trauma Syndrome?

Post by NonTraditionalMom » 24 Jun 2015, 19:52

Hi NP, and welcome! I feel like you are a younger version of myself, and I wish I had your wisdom and foresight. I think you are very wise to be thinking deeply about these issues now as you're looking forward to building your life.

As a woman, I will say that the issues in the temple definitely spurred my FC. Unlike you, I didn't know about anything ahead of time, and although I noticed a few little discrepancies when I first attended, it wasn't until 15 years of faithful attendance that the differences between men and women were suddenly glaringly obvious. And once you notice, you can't un-notice. Although it's true that the word "hate" is never spoken, I can certainly echo that feeling. I have left the temple, where I went with the explicit desire to gain some peace and understanding, feeling completely confused and unworthy. While I am nowhere near reconciled in my thoughts about this, I must conclude that this is division is man-made, and that the God I worship loves me as fully and equally as he does my husband and sons. Otherwise, like Hawk said, it's not worth it. The last time I attended, I felt very emotionally manipulated, so that didn't really help the situation. I wish I had some super helpful advice, but I'm just not there.

Regarding your family, oh, I can relate!! Every day, multiple times a day, I repeat the mantra: "I am the captain of my own ship" (quoting SD, I think), but I still feel very much under the control of my family. One of these days, I'll have the courage to tell my dad that I just don't agree with him and that my exemplary life is not what he thinks it is, and I'll feel his disappointment and perhaps fury, and it will hurt. And then we'll move forward. It sounds great writing it out! I guess what I'm saying is that I completely understand the overwhelming need to conform to their wishes and not let anyone down. This is your life, though. I feel like you really will feel the freedom and ability to pursue your true spiritual path when you allow yourself to make decisions based on what you feel is right. Hang in there!

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LookingHard
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Re: Religion Trauma Syndrome?

Post by LookingHard » 24 Jun 2015, 20:20

Ann wrote:I don't think most LDS men are comfortable with the temple wording when they take notice of it.
I can tell you some do!

Ann
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Re: Religion Trauma Syndrome?

Post by Ann » 25 Jun 2015, 00:40

LookingHard wrote:
Ann wrote:I don't think most LDS men are comfortable with the temple wording when they take notice of it.
I can tell you some do!
That is good to see in print. I want to say, Please go tell someone. Because there'sno one I can tell. There's no appropriate place and time in mainstream Mormonism to say anything. And apparently the thousands of women on the internet expressing deep and long-standing problems with sexism in the temple - with the words said there - are spitting in the wind. It's sad that we have to ask men to put this forward for us, but I guess that's the way it goes.
RayDegraw wrote: Most people who don't take notice of the wording aren't bothered by it, and many write off the wording as not relevant today, since they personally have great, equal marriages. I honestly don't think any of the top leadership don't care. They seem to be trying to change things in many ways to give women more voice in the Church.
I have a great, equal marriage. Maybe that's part of why the temple is now hitting me like a ton of bricks. (Although I have to admit it was a long time coming.) I agree that there are good changes afoot.
1) They simply don't understand the depth of disconnect and discomfort felt by many women, since they personally don't see the same implications in the wording;
What is really so hard about seeing it from a woman's perspective? Most men, when they become aware or sensitized to it, are immediately taken aback by the inequity of it all. It's pretty easy to see why many women would essentially "give up" on leaders who are so unseeing.
They see the enormity and difficulty of making wholesale changes to something so many members view as practically inerrant and are making incremental changes as quickly as they feel the root can handle it, without touching initially the words themselves.
I was more optimistic about this being true before the polygamy essays. They seem like a doubling-down and digging-in for the long haul. There are too many things that could easily change. Why couldn't the veiling be done away with? That's not in the meat of the script. I don't think anyone would accuse them of caving to feminists.
Many things have been removed from the endowment over time, but it is easier to remove something than to make changes to something like the script itself - which is what I think would be best. For example, it is easier to make Eve more physically and emotionally active and to portray more involvement and a more central, influential, deciding role in that way (which the new films do very obviously) than to give her new lines or change the script to include her more directly. I actually believe the latter approach will be taken in the future, and I wish I believed it would be sooner than I think it will be.
I understand what they were aiming for there, and it is a good thing, but it's just not enough. I'm afraid they won't change it until after the survey (ala the one that resulted in removing the penalties) to find out why so many women under age 40 have stopped going to the temple. The "new" Eve is a more expressive and active participant, but that's what makes the words that come out of her mouth all the more inexplicable. To be fair, these leaders inherited a script from people who inherited Genesis, but we're the ones who talk about the restoration being ongoing and the beauty of an open canon.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

Ann
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Re: Religion Trauma Syndrome?

Post by Ann » 25 Jun 2015, 00:59

hawkgrrrl wrote: I'm forced to conclude: 1) the men in charge don't listen to it from a woman's perspective (and why would they when most women ignore it), 2) there are enough leaders who believe life should be misery who think women should just suck it up, 3) there are some who misguidedly think polygamy is eternal, 4) they think only feminists are bothered by it and that the church would be better off without them. I'm guessing all 4 apply partly.
Not a lot of good news here. The only one I can influence is the first. And that's where I struggle with my daughters; they will ignore more and less based, to some extent, what I ignore. They're their own people, but I know they look to me in this area. Just saying, "Yeah, I hope it'll change someday. [Read here, probably not in your lifetime at this pace.] Focus on the good stuff," seems a little weak anymore.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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SamBee
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Re: Religion Trauma Syndrome?

Post by SamBee » 25 Jun 2015, 07:48

N’oublie Pas wrote: That is something that I find helpful, and from what I have heard/read about the second anointing, it does help me reconcile the temple a little bit better.

Thank you for your input. :)
No problemo. My take on the temple, and women's role in it, is that it is certainly reformable, and not completely unsalvagable. Men and women are always going to have slightly different robes, due to their body shapes, but whether skirts will continue (not giving too much away here :lol: ) is another matter.

Again (and not giving too much away here), I think the bit which sticks in the craw most is about "husbands". (I think you know what I am referring to).

It's definitely not ideal just now, but it is improving. In my short time in the church, I've noticed that Eve's role in the temple film is much more nuanced than it used to be, although obviously the words are the same. IMHO, the endowment, with a few tweaks, could be reformed far more easily than our male-dominated ward/branch/stake structure.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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