A newbie to this particular forum

Public forum, tell us about yourself and what brings you to StayLDS!
Rob4Hope
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Re: A newbie to this particular forum

Post by Rob4Hope » 15 Jun 2015, 12:11

Roy wrote:I can only assume that getting rebaptized would allow you to engage with the ward without the stigma of being an x-ed member. That is assuming that this is important to you. For me I have a desire to baptise my children (which I can technically do without a TR as long as the bishop does not see fit to prevent it) and participate in other LDS centric milestones (baby blessings, priesthood ordination, etc.).

Again welcome. You are among friends here.
Hi Roy.

I don't feel much stigma at this point. People have been pretty good to me. When they ask me to do things, I am honest and say that I am only allowed to do some things, but to not feel bad for asking at all. It seems appreciated that I have boundaries, but also respectfully help others know, when appropriate, that some things I can do and others I can't.

Its all good for me. And,...this is important!!!! I have discovered that the opportunities for services have nothing to do with a calling. You know how many times I have been over to a friends home cheering them up because they have a frightening surgery coming up?...or helping someone move who really needs it?...or calling a friend to tell them I love them and am concerned about them?

The opportunities to strengthen feeble knees and help to shore someone up are LEGION! My bishop, who I am a friend with, LOVES me. Why?....because I am the guy who takes up so much slack where people fall through the cracks as they suffer alone. I know how to cry with someone. I don't think anyone should ever cry alone. That is not right in my book.

So, exed or not...I know how to love people. I don't need to have my name on a roll to know how to care. I've been to hell. I know what it feels like to feel utterly forsaken. To me, it makes me want to help others,..not because I necessarily have some faith or answers for them, but because regardless of whether I do or not, I do know what love is.

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DarkJedi
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Re: A newbie to this particular forum

Post by DarkJedi » 15 Jun 2015, 12:16

Rob4Hope wrote:I did some poking around and see a big section on Fowlers, and though many have said the site is not apologetic, from my perspective, a support forum is still "apologetic" in many ways (because we talk about 'perspective' that is not necessarily orthodox). Anyway,...glad to be here,...and above all?....glad there is some response and action on this site.
The only other thing I'll say about being apologetic here is that some people take offense at being called apologists. It can have a negative connotation because there are apologists who ask people to take leaps or make connections that just aren't there (I'm sure you're aware of the term "mental gymnastics"). If any of us here are apologists, we are not that type of apologist.
Rob4Hope wrote:Why do I want to come back? Well,.I'm not sure I do. BUT,...I can say this (and will share a more detailed post later), I have had spiritual events happen in my life that are unmistakable. I have felt things reach across the veil and touch me in various ways, and I've seen the affects.

Apparently (and I got this impression from other sites I have frequented), such events tend to be more rare for a lot of people. I can't speak to that--I don't know; I do know, however, that for me, spiritual "light" is almost a tangible thing. And, when it comes, it ALWAYS has an essence of liquid love involved.

I can't explain this stuff folks. Its like trying to tell someone what salt tastes like. But,...I've had some of those things happen in my life. One time, during a priesthood blessing, I opened my eyes and looked around the room, mentally saying to myself: "Remember this". I wanted to see what I would see with my eyes,...if they would see anything at all going on. What I was feeling, what was happening, though unseen, was aa real as me sitting here typing.
I think the Spirit works differently for everybody and I think some people do have more spiritual experiences than others. I don't know why, but it probably has something to do with God and the individual's need. I think I am one who has fewer experiences, although I also admit that I am often dubious of my feelings and I am more likely to chalk something up to emotion than the Holy Ghost - but that's just me. I am still happy for others who have spiritual experiences and recognize tender mercies (although sometimes I doubt them, too).
Rob4Hope wrote:So,...that is me. I struggle with wanting to come back. I admit that. But it feels even more wrong to just walk away. I think I gotta wrestle and thrash a little more in stage 4 while I make sense out of my position and how to deal with some of the struggles that are still going on.
I suppose the obvious question is what is holding you at stage 4? We love to discuss things here, so don't be afraid to throw your questions out there.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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Heber13
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Re: A newbie to this particular forum

Post by Heber13 » 15 Jun 2015, 13:27

I think there does begin to be some realization and separation of those spiritual events and experiences apart from church itself.

In other words, the church doesn't have authority to control all spiritual experiences. They have authority to baptize into the church, or to issue callings, or to give temple recommends...all of which can lead to certain spiritual experiences.

But they don't hold a monopoly on spirituality.

Stage 3 is very much about compartmentalizing authority for things. Stage 4 is realizing it doesn't match with real world experience, and anger and distrust from someone whose stage 3 authority didn't explain things according to reality. People can then move back into stage 3 in other areas, or stage 5 accepting conjunctive faith of all stage 3 groups, focusing on goodness wherever we find it.

Or...someone just throws their hands up and says
I don't give a rip about Fowler's stages...I angry or I realize I'm just am on my own journey and will figure it out.
(which fits into the stage theory).

But to the point...in or out of the church...you still have your spirituality.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Minyan Man
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Re: A newbie to this particular forum

Post by Minyan Man » 15 Jun 2015, 13:50

Rob4Hope, you said:
I don't feel much stigma at this point. People have been pretty good to me. When they ask me to do things, I am honest and say that I am only allowed to do some things, but to not feel bad for asking at all. It seems appreciated that I have boundaries, but also respectfully help others know, when appropriate, that some things I can do and others I can't.

Its all good for me. And,...this is important!!!! I have discovered that the opportunities for services have nothing to do with a calling. You know how many times I have been over to a friends home cheering them up because they have a frightening surgery coming up?...or helping someone move who really needs it?...or calling a friend to tell them I love them and am concerned about them?
This is a very good a attitude to take.
Welcome to the tribe.

Rob4Hope
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Joined: 06 Jan 2015, 07:28

Re: A newbie to this particular forum

Post by Rob4Hope » 15 Jun 2015, 15:26

Well, I posted out on the excommunicated topic thread, here as well, and have jumped in thoroughly into this new forum.

Rob4Hope is alive and well,...still has an attitude,...but making progress and feeling like their just might be some sunshine once again in his life.

8-)

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SilentDawning
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Re: A newbie to this particular forum

Post by SilentDawning » 15 Jun 2015, 16:28

Rob4Hope wrote:
Stage 5 example: .....They are the ones where the locus of authority has been reframed internally. They weight the messages they hear, and between them and God as they believe, they choose for themselves how and what they believe.
This is perhaps the most masterful description of how to reach Stage 5. It describes exactly the path I took to finding relative peace in the church, and with my TBM family members. Thanks for capturing the mechanism by which some might be able to achieve the state I have described in my signature line for State 5 below this post. Complements of Brian Johnson who led me there in a one-liner buried in one of his posts years ago. But you said it even better.
I do feel hope there is a future for me, and even in the church. I have the possibility of rebaptism and having blessings restored. The problem hasn't been the "how" to do that,...but "why". You see, when you feel like you have been lied to about what you believe, the "why" question becomes slippery. My faith will never be the same as it was. I can't go back to stage 3--I have tried, believe me...but it is not in my future.

Anyway,...look folks, I would be grateful if I were allowed to be part of this online community. I am respectful and will approach concerns with questions, and that in a way to respect others feelings. I hope I can make friends here, and perhaps learn and grow on some of these unfinished concerns I struggle with.
Welcome. In my view you've already paved an identity here with the clarity of your post. I believe there is a way to achieve what you desire, as well. Looking forward to issue-by-issue posts as you work through the why of it...
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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nibbler
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Re: A newbie to this particular forum

Post by nibbler » 16 Jun 2015, 05:03

Rob4Hope wrote:Ha,...I remember your avatar the most,...that thinking gorilla. :D
I thought it was a gorilla getting a glamor shot by Deb.

Image

I haven't read Fowler's book, something tells me I'd have to read the same page over and over again and I still wouldn't understand what I read. I also didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express so take this for what it's worth.

I thought stage 4 was when a person began to discover their own internal voice of authority. I'm not sure where that leaves stage 5. Perhaps stage 5 is when you no longer view yourself as the ultimate authority (as it pertains to self) and you begin to "vacation" in the world garden of available loci of authority in order to refine your sense of self. :eh: I tried to use English.

In other words I think the internal locus of authority shows up much sooner than stage 5. I would think that it's required in order to be critical enough for cracks to appear in the stage 3 mindset. To simplify my stage 5 explanation? Maybe the saying:
Relax, Nothing is under control.
And realizing that statement extends to ourselves, not just external forces.

Stage 6 is super simple to explain. You know you were stage 6 when people are still talking about your impact long after your martyrdom. :P
Rob4Hope wrote:This pathway,...these stages of faith, are one directional: you don't go from stage 5 back to 4, or from 4 back to 3.
I agree with Roy on this one. I think the lines between stages are a little more blurry than we'd like to admit. Roy mentioned exiting one system of beliefs in exchange for another.

It might be semantics but it depends on what you mean by going back. In that sense I agree with you as well. Maybe a person in one stage can revisit another stage that they have already experienced but do they truly go back to that stage or are they returning encased in an insulated environment. E.g. I'm going to investigate Buddhism and see what it has to offer, but I'm going in with the intent to seek after things of good report and all things praiseworthy, not to look for a new leader.

Maybe it all comes down to confidence. Confidence in others. Confidence in self. Peace when walking in a lack of confidence. It's all good.
Rob4Hope wrote:And,...this is important!!!! I have discovered that the opportunities for services have nothing to do with a calling.
:thumbup:

I'm getting sidetracked. Welcome. I look forward to hearing more from you.
You can't break what's broken already.
- LeAnn Rimes

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LookingHard
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Re: A newbie to this particular forum

Post by LookingHard » 16 Jun 2015, 05:53

nibbler wrote:
Rob4Hope wrote:Ha,...I remember your avatar the most,...that thinking gorilla. :D
I thought it was a gorilla getting a glamor shot by Deb.

Image
Where did you find my real picture? You have outed me!
nibbler wrote:I haven't read Fowler's book, something tells me I'd have to read the same page over and over again and I still wouldn't understand what I read. I also didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express so take this for what it's worth.
I know what you are saying. Just listen to MormonDiscussionPodcast.org on the stages of faith. He has a few there. He just did one at http://leadinglds.com/making-room-in-ld ... -of-faith/ on this subject.

Rob4Hope
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Re: A newbie to this particular forum

Post by Rob4Hope » 16 Jun 2015, 10:58

got me a new avatar. hehehehehehehe

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: A newbie to this particular forum

Post by hawkgrrrl » 16 Jun 2015, 11:03

From an old post of mine:
Q: How many apologists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: Since there is light, we know that the number of apologists involved was sufficient to complete the operation of lightbulb-screwing-in to connect the lightbulb to a power source which could then create the light. Or if there were no apologists involved in the lightbulb-screwing-in, somehow or other it got screwed in. Look, a butterfly!
IOW, we don’t know how, but we know there is light.

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