Thanks for listening..

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nibbler
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Joined: 14 Nov 2013, 07:34
Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe

Re: Thanks for listening..

Post by nibbler » 21 May 2015, 07:33

Annie421 wrote:Dont get me wrong ,we attend church to feel uplifted and closer to HF and our Savior, not look for flaws, But week in and week out, it seems like almost every conversation turns to “missionary service”. What about all of the other topics ?
Ha. I am (or was) right there with you on that point. Hasten the work (HtW) absolutely took over the unit I was in. Every Sunday at least one hour was dedicated to talking about HtW as it pertains to missionary work, some Sundays it was the topic for more than one of the hours. It got absolutely exhausting. Case in point, here's a nibbler vent thread from over a year ago: Has hastening the work become a gospel hobby? It's interesting (for me) to revisit those thoughts, I'd say a few things very differently now.

The storm eventually passed. We went back to the manuals for SS. 1st, 4th, and 5th Sunday PH moved on to other topics. SM topics became a little more varied. HtW got repurposed as taking names to the temple. That said, I know how hard it can be when the orchestra decides to only play one note.
Annie421 wrote:But, I find myself rolling my eyes whenever I hear things like i mentioned before,especially when we hear an RM is getting married within months after returning home. How can they possibly even know the person in such a short period of time? We are told that Mission Presidents tell RMs to “go find a wife” before they break their covenants. Well isn’t choosing the person you will marry the most important decision you will ever make? We strongly disagree with the idea that whomever we marry, even if we are incompatible, we should just “endure to the end.” Excuse me?! Marriage is part of the Plan of Happiness, right? And Why do so many girls who marry so young want to jump in and have kids within a year? What about getting to really know each other without the responsibility of parenthood added so soon?
Yes, I believe that's a big part of the culture, the notion that any two people can work it out if they both focus on Christ, I've heard lots of counsel in the past to not delay having children, etc. I think another reason we marry so young is because we take no sexual relations before marriage very seriously. I don't know how bad it is for women but for men we might start convincing ourselves that we want to marry someone after the first date. :angel:

And with that, welcome to StayLDS. ;)
Sometimes, the thing you've been looking for your whole life is right there beside you all along.
-Peter Quill

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SilentDawning
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Re: Thanks for listening..

Post by SilentDawning » 21 May 2015, 08:11

I taught one of the most effective lessons in a while, years ago in HPGL.

It was based on consulting work I was doing regarding personality assessments. I had everyone do a watered down version of the Gallup StrenghsFinder 2.0 (really watered down), and found out where they stood in terms of their passion for Strategic Planning, Execution, Relationship-Building, and Influencing others.

Then, created a "quorum map" on the board that showed the number of people who preferred each of these personality domains. The quorum was strong in relationship building, a healthy presence in planning, a bit of execution and hardly any influencing. About three of us.

Then, shared my philosophy that inviting people to take discussions is not for everyone -- and that relationship building is not for everyone either. Nor is planning and even nuts and bolts execution.

I suggested that perhaps we have gone astray as a Church in expecting everyone to be "closers" when it comes to getting non-members to take discussions.

We talked about cooperation -- how people who like to build relationships do nothing more than that, other than to eventually build relationships between the Influencers in our quorum and the non-member. The person who has a passion for influencing others could make the hard invitations...

Massive warming to the idea of missionary work that uses the native passions of people, rather than expecting everyone to be an inviter/influencer, etcetera.

It's something I hope to remember when/if I get into full blown activity again.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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LookingHard
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Re: Thanks for listening..

Post by LookingHard » 21 May 2015, 11:57

Welcome Annie - I hope you find this site to be helpful.
nibbler wrote:I think another reason we marry so young is because we take no sexual relations before marriage very seriously. I don't know how bad it is for women but for men we might start convincing ourselves that we want to marry someone after the first date. :angel:
After the first date? What about even BEFORE!

SD - that lesson sounds really good. I do think it is good how the church can sometimes help us grow in areas we are not strong in, but I have seen a few times where someone just really didn't know how to put on a big even (like a ward fathers and son's campout in a large ward) and it really flopped. The guy is a great guy and has the best intentions, but it went terrible. I don't even think he realized just how some people felt as they knew his heart and didn't want to get on his case.

But on the other hand, there are some squarish people and some holes are just round (no puns intended, but you could find them if you look). Sometimes we are setting people up for failure and/or extreme stress.

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Heber13
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Location: In the Middle

Re: Thanks for listening..

Post by Heber13 » 21 May 2015, 13:05

LookingHard wrote:After the first date? What about even BEFORE!
:lol:
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Roy
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Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Thanks for listening..

Post by Roy » 21 May 2015, 13:17

FaithfulSkeptic wrote:As an early-returning missionary in the 1980s and having two sons that have returned home early as well, I can assure you that missions aren't for everyone. In my opinion, it is far better to not serve a mission than to do it for the wrong reasons, or if you aren't ready for it. I can't tell you how much emotional and psychological pain that returning home early from a mission has caused for me, my sons, and my whole family. There are so many other ways to serve God and others besides serving a mission. Missions are great for some people, but they just aren't good for others. My son who returned less than a year ago now doesn't believe at all and has done a complete 180 with his life and values.
Part of the difficulty with being a communal heritage religion is that we expect people in the church to be the same. We expect them to look the same, act the same, and follow the same milestones. Conformity is celebrated, diversity is not.

This is great and reinforcing for people who naturally fit the mold. They are on the fast track to success.

When someone does not fit the mold it becomes a conflict. The mission is a big divider of this. ETB taught that every worthy young man should serve a mission. Girls have been taught to look for RM as a prerequisite to marriage. Socially speaking having courting access to eligable females within your own community is HUGE as a motivating factor.

I believe that this puts a barrier to continued church participation for those YM that do not serve a mission. They do not feel accepted. They feel like second class citisens especially in the dating department. They may be passively pushed out of the church by well meaning pressure and expectations.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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DarkJedi
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Re: Thanks for listening..

Post by DarkJedi » 21 May 2015, 13:42

Roy wrote:I believe that this puts a barrier to continued church participation for those YM that do not serve a mission. They do not feel accepted. They feel like second class citisens especially in the dating department. They may be passively pushed out of the church by well meaning pressure and expectations.
I made this point in a recent high council meeting. I think it's bigger than most 40-something married RMs realize.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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FaithfulSkeptic
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Joined: 06 Jun 2014, 09:04

Re: Thanks for listening..

Post by FaithfulSkeptic » 21 May 2015, 14:00

Roy wrote:When someone does not fit the mold it becomes a conflict. The mission is a big divider of this. ETB taught that every worthy young man should serve a mission. Girls have been taught to look for RM as a prerequisite to marriage. Socially speaking having courting access to eligable females within your own community is HUGE as a motivating factor.

I believe that this puts a barrier to continued church participation for those YM that do not serve a mission. They do not feel accepted. They feel like second class citisens especially in the dating department. They may be passively pushed out of the church by well meaning pressure and expectations.
Amen! :clap: I see this happen all the time (I live on the Wasatch Front, so it's probably worse here than anywhere else). Somehow we need to change our culture to help YM (and YW) to feel valued in the church and as individuals, even if they don't fit the missionary mold or would just rather serve the Lord in some other way. I'm afraid that for the most part, YM who do not serve missions within a year or two of high school graduation don't feel like they belong in the church anymore, and most just stop attending, even if they are believers. And because of the emphasis on YW being taught to marry RMs, YM who don't serve missions or return early tend to really feel like second class citizens in the dating department, or they look to date YW who are not LDS.
I know of no sign on the doors of our meetinghouses that says, “Your testimony must be this tall to enter.” Dieter F. Uchtdorf, October 2014

NonTraditionalMom
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Joined: 22 May 2015, 08:48

Re: Thanks for listening..

Post by NonTraditionalMom » 22 May 2015, 13:32

:wave: I'm new here, too. I definitely see where you are coming from. My children are just a little bit younger, but I have similar thoughts.
Somehow we need to change our culture to help YM (and YW) to feel valued in the church and as individuals, even if they don't fit the missionary mold or would just rather serve the Lord in some other way.
I love this! As the age for missionaries has decreased, I have seen an increase pressure on both YM and YW to serve missions. I have heard both YM and YW encouraged to only date RMs, and I have witnessed ward pressure on 18-year-old boys to serve when they were not ready. I wish we would be more diligent in stressing that worthiness does not equal readiness, and that a person can be completely worthy without ever choosing to go on a mission. I am sure we all can think of examples of RMs who do not exemplify Christ and people who have never served or came home early who do.

About the marriage thing... SERIOUSLY. I got married at 19 and my husband was 21. We have both had to grow up during our marriage, and while I am very grateful that our growth has generally been in a similar direction, I attribute that more to luck than our righteousness!

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Heber13
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Re: Thanks for listening..

Post by Heber13 » 22 May 2015, 14:03

NonTraditionalMom wrote: I wish we would be more diligent in stressing that worthiness does not equal readiness, and that a person can be completely worthy without ever choosing to go on a mission.
I agree!! Totally!

I guess it starts in our homes...we have to teach this to the kids.

The trick is when they hear it emphasized at church...how to get them to come home and talk about it...so we can set the record straight again. Not easy sometimes.

(and welcome NonTraditionalMom! Glad to see you joined the convo!)
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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mom3
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Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: Thanks for listening..

Post by mom3 » 22 May 2015, 14:52

Non-traditional wrote -
. I got married at 19 and my husband was 21. We have both had to grow up during our marriage,
Count me in on that, and a few thousand others. Even pre faith transition we began repeating to our children - WAIT. Over and over we said, "We got married to young." Like you our lives have been fairly smooth, fortunate, etc. But the extra years of knowing ones own self could have saved so many early bumps and pains. It's okay to be an individual. In fact by the Judgement Day standard, we will be judged as an individual. So a few years in mortality can't hurt.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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