Polygamy and Disassembling

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Khadijah
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Polygamy and Disassembling

Post by Khadijah » 17 Mar 2020, 22:46

I had 9 years experience with Islam and often feel more Muslim than anything. The sole issue for me is Jesus the Christ and on that issue alone I differ from Muslims. If you want more talk about what Muslims actually believe we can do that later, but for now no. In Islam a man can have 3 or 4 wives and there are rules about even that. So, for me it is not an issue if it is kept to that level, and it is all voluntary. 30 or more wives is right from Hell!

So my research started with a story in the SLTRIB (Salt Lake Tribune). For those who do not know, the Feds have arrested and tried people for fraud around Federal subsidy of Biofuel, I think. All that is just normal Law Enforcement investigative work to me.

What set me back is the fact that it appears to be common local knowledge that there is a huge polygamist family right IN Salt Lake City, and Box Elder County. I think one interviewee said there were over 30 wives. It is called the Kingston Clan and they are into all sorts of things. Apparently Welfare Fraud is part of it? The surprise for me is that the GA allows this to go on right under their noses.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Polygamy and Disassembling

Post by DarkJedi » 18 Mar 2020, 06:11

It is well known that there large polygamist families and groups all over Utah and it has been that way for many years. My first visit to Utah was back in the early 80s and I was not a member and knew little about the church but my friend (who was a member) I was visiting pointed out to me a very large house and told me it was a polygamist house.

I think the reason the church doesn't do anything about it is because they don't consider them members. I know that doesn't always stop the church from meddling, particularly in Utah politics, but in this case it seems to. Now if they were gay polygamists, it would probably be a whole different story.

I seem to remember reading a news article recently about a bill in Utah decriminalizing polygamy(?).

For the record I am anti-polygamy and do not believe it is of God.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Khadijah
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Re: Polygamy and Disassembling

Post by Khadijah » 18 Mar 2020, 17:40

I'm not baiting you, promise.

I was told by a lifelong Member, who was told by a Member who serves at the Temple weekly, that to get into the Celestial Kingdom, one must have participated in Polygamy.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Polygamy and Disassembling

Post by DarkJedi » 19 Mar 2020, 05:22

Khadijah wrote:
18 Mar 2020, 17:40
I'm not baiting you, promise.

I was told by a lifelong Member, who was told by a Member who serves at the Temple weekly, that to get into the Celestial Kingdom, one must have participated in Polygamy.
Section 132 does seem to allude to that idea. I don't believe section 132 to be revelation and I don't really buy the telestial/terrestrial/celestial theology. Truth is I think there's one heaven and no hell.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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nibbler
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Re: Polygamy and Disassembling

Post by nibbler » 19 Mar 2020, 06:37

Khadijah wrote:
18 Mar 2020, 17:40
I was told by a lifelong Member, who was told by a Member who serves at the Temple weekly, that to get into the Celestial Kingdom, one must have participated in Polygamy.
There's a theory that "the order of the priesthood"/" new and everlasting covenant" referred to in Doctrine and Covenants 131 is actually polygamy.
Doctrine and Covenants 131:1-4 wrote:In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
The theory is that the original meaning of "the new and everlasting covenant" was actually a reference to polygamy but was later reinterpreted as any sealing, including monogamous sealings, because of increasingly disfavorable views towards polygamy.

Some things to point out, just my opinions.

I think it's important to ask ourselves: Who received a revelation/interpreted god's will that a person must be in a polygamous relationship in order to get into the highest degree of the CK?

A polygamist. A polygamist did.

Now, you enter into the realm of chicken and egg. Did the person become a polygamist because they believed it to be god's will or did the polygamist think that polygamy is important to god because it's important to them? Impossible to tell, but I think it factors into any discussion on god's will for mankind, that personal bias that all humans are subject to.

An illustration of this is the variety in imagery used to depict Jesus. In some cultures he's black, in some he's more Asian, in ours he's Norwegian/European. People derive their beliefs from deity and their conceptualization of deity is derived from their beliefs. It's a two way street. A vegetarian might receive revelation that people have to be vegetarian to get into heaven. A dog catcher may receive revelation that people have to do more to control the stray dog population in order to get into heaven.

Again, the disclaimer is that this is just me, at least me right now...

I try not to give more weight to a belief because of who said it. Just because someone that works in the temple said something or just because the president of the church said something doesn't mean that belief has any more or any less credibility than anyone else's belief.
It is the end of the world. Surely you could be allowed a few carnal thoughts.
― Connie Willis

Minyan Man
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Re: Polygamy and Disassembling

Post by Minyan Man » 19 Mar 2020, 08:32

nibbler wrote:
19 Mar 2020, 06:37
...Again, the disclaimer is that this is just me, at least me right now...

I try not to give more weight to a belief because of who said it. Just because someone that works in the temple said something or just because the president of the church said something doesn't mean that belief has any more or any less credibility than anyone else's belief.
This is my belief too. There is sooo much in the history & the doctrine of the church that can & will be debated for along time.
I personally don't get caught up in the debates. My focus is on the basics of the gospel: Jesus Christ, faith, repentance,
baptism, forgiveness, etc. Maybe it is because I'm old, there just isn't enough time to resolve the debates.

grobert93
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Re: Polygamy and Disassembling

Post by grobert93 » 19 Mar 2020, 09:23

DarkJedi wrote:
19 Mar 2020, 05:22
Khadijah wrote:
18 Mar 2020, 17:40
I'm not baiting you, promise.

I was told by a lifelong Member, who was told by a Member who serves at the Temple weekly, that to get into the Celestial Kingdom, one must have participated in Polygamy.
Section 132 does seem to allude to that idea. I don't believe section 132 to be revelation and I don't really buy the telestial/terrestrial/celestial theology. Truth is I think there's one heaven and no hell.
I am very curious how you justify Joseph's authenticity as a prophet then, as half of his claim to fame is revelation for polygamy (And his nasty history practicing it) as well as seeing his brother In a lesser kingdom, learning of the spirit world (and if there is no spirit world the Temple is even more wasteful and useless than it already is) and so on.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Polygamy and Disassembling

Post by DarkJedi » 19 Mar 2020, 09:49

grobert93 wrote:
19 Mar 2020, 09:23
DarkJedi wrote:
19 Mar 2020, 05:22
Khadijah wrote:
18 Mar 2020, 17:40
I'm not baiting you, promise.

I was told by a lifelong Member, who was told by a Member who serves at the Temple weekly, that to get into the Celestial Kingdom, one must have participated in Polygamy.
Section 132 does seem to allude to that idea. I don't believe section 132 to be revelation and I don't really buy the telestial/terrestrial/celestial theology. Truth is I think there's one heaven and no hell.
I am very curious how you justify Joseph's authenticity as a prophet then, as half of his claim to fame is revelation for polygamy (And his nasty history practicing it) as well as seeing his brother In a lesser kingdom, learning of the spirit world (and if there is no spirit world the Temple is even more wasteful and useless than it already is) and so on.
I believe Joseph had some kind of profound spiritual experience "early in the spring of 1820." I believe at least some of what he said and did was at a minimum inspired. I think he was a genius. I do not think he was perfect (no one is) and in fact was very flawed. I believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ. Because some things were inspired doesn't mean everything was. We've all experienced our own confirmation bias, and so did he. He saw through the same dark/dim glass/mirror we all do. He was not infallible. The church is not all or nothing or all black or white, and neither was he (or any other human). It actually gives me hope that if God could work with someone as flawed as he was I'm in pretty good shape.

Like MM, I am focused on the core principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that He asked us to believe in Him and love one another as He loved us, that He suffered and died for our sins, and that he was resurrected. Nothing else really matters. Time and time again Joseph Smith testified of Jesus Christ.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Roy
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Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Polygamy and Disassembling

Post by Roy » 19 Mar 2020, 10:17

grobert93 wrote:
19 Mar 2020, 09:23
I am very curious how you justify Joseph's authenticity as a prophet then, as half of his claim to fame is revelation for polygamy (And his nasty history practicing it) as well as seeing his brother In a lesser kingdom, learning of the spirit world (and if there is no spirit world the Temple is even more wasteful and useless than it already is) and so on.
I wish to point out that JS saw his bother Alvin in the celestial kingdom as well as his still living mother and father.
I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;
It is therefore reasonable to interpret that JS was seeing either something that had not yet taken place but would at some future date, or perhaps something that could take place if the right conditions were met, or even something that was not meant to be taken literally but was shown to JS to teach a lesson. In this last possibility, I am drawing a comparison with the vision shown to Peter recorded in Acts 10. We do not expect fulfilment of Peter's vision in a literal sense. It was shown to Peter to teach a valuable lesson.

In discussing the revelations of JS I believe it is instructive that JS modified and added to his revelations at later periods. I feel that his own willingness to make changes mean that he did not believe them to be perfect, infallible, or inalterable as though each word and phrase had come directly from God's mouth.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Roy
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Re: Polygamy and Disassembling

Post by Roy » 19 Mar 2020, 10:27

Finally, I have compiled various justifications for polygamy used by JS or his contemporaries. A number of these justifications are related to doctrines that we no longer hold to as members of the church but were believed by many early members.
Polygyny Justifications of JS
1. God commands it: “God said thou shalt not kill, at another time he said thou shalt utterly destroy…that which is wrong under one circumstance, may be and often is, right under another…Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is…although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.” RSR p. 441 “I have constantly said no man shall have but one wife at a time, unless the Lord directs otherwise. “TPJS p. 256, 324
2. The ancient patriarchs practiced it (apparently without divine condemnation).
3. To fashion a righteous generation on the eve of the Second Coming: “The Lord has revealed to me that it is his will that righteous men shall take righteous women, even a plurality of wives, that a righteous race may be sent forth upon the earth preparatory to the ushering in of the millennial reign of our Redeemer.” RSR p. 326, Jacob 2:24-30
4. For “greater glory”: “The first commandment was to ‘Multiply’ and the Prophet taught us that Dominion & power in the great future would be commensurate with the number of ‘wives, children & friends’ that we inherit here and that our great mission to earth was to organize a nucleus of Heaven to take with us. To the increase of which there would be no end.”…”When the family organization was revealed from heaven- the patriarchal order of God, and Joseph began, on the right hand and the left, to add to his family, what a quaking there was in Israel.” In Sacred loneliness p. 10-11 “Joseph’s kingdom grew with the size of his family, and those bonded to that family would be exalted with him.” JS reportedly said "I know that I shall be saved in the Kingdom of God. I have the oath of God upon it and God cannot lie. All that he gives me I shall take with me for I have that authority and that power conferred upon me." In Sacred Loneliness. The purpose was “to create a network of related wives, children, and kinsmen that would endure into the eternities…Like Abraham of old, Joseph yearned for familial plentitude.” RSR p 439-440, D & C 132:55 “If your [husband] and you should be alone by the side of such a king as Abraham or Solomon with all his queens and their numerous servants and waiting maids in courtly livery, would he not look like a mere rushlight by the side of such suns, or rather would he be seen at all! I should almost fear that your [husband] would be taken for a servant, and you for a waiting maid; or if they should, in the galaxy and splendor of 144,00 such suns as Solomon, happen to see you and your [husband] with a king’s coronet upon his head, they might think him short of wedding garments, or that the selfishness of his wife had stinted his growth to such an insignificant, crab-tree size! Besides, a Queen to him that has his hundreds of wives in eternity, with children as numberless as the stars of heaven, would receive intelligence, wealth, honour, children, and dominion, in some measure proportioned to the exaltations of her husband and king; while your [husband], not having much to look after besides you, could not demand the same measure of wealth, honour, and dominion, because he could use upon you and your little family but a small pittance of what pertains to one moving in a wider and far more exalted sphere. Your intelligence, and that of your children, could not rise higher than the intelligence of your husband. Consequently, you must see yourself and your husband, and your children, continually outstripped in intelligence by all others around you. Your social circle must consequently be very limited at home. And your offspring not be as numerous. The motive which would lead you to retain your husband exclusively to yourself, would contribute to make you comparatively unfruitful, and also vitiate the mental and bodily functions of your offspring, and sow the seeds of death and mortality in their systems... Hence I see the wisdom of God in not tolerating any such system [as monogamy] among the celestial worthies who are to be kings and queens unto God for ever…. God has determined to bestow His greatest blessings upon the liberal order, and only very stinted favours upon the narrow, contracted order [of monogamy] which you seem to desire. In the former order your children are all the lawful heirs of thrones and kingdoms, and in your favourite order they are only the heirs of servile inferiority.” Millennial Star 1853 Nelly & Abby
5. Pre-mortal commitments: “Joseph said I was his, before I came here. He said all the Devils in Hell should never get me from him.” JS had been told to marry Mary, “or suffer condemnation- for I (Mary) was created for him before the foundation of the Earth was laid.” In Sacred Loneliness, also “thou made a covenant with one of thy kindred spirits to be thy guardian angel while here in mortality, also with two others, male and female spirits, that thou wouldst come and take a tabernacle through their lineage, and become one of their offspring. You also choose a kindred spirit whom you loved in the spirit world … to be your be head, stay, husband, and protector on the earth, and to exalt you in the eternal worlds. All these were arranged.” The Origin and Destiny of Women, John Taylor. Said Asael Smith, Grandfather of the Prophet, “I believe God hath created the persons for each other, and that Nature will find its own.” The Family of Joseph Smith p 16
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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