Saving Ordinances

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
Kipper
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Saving Ordinances

Post by Kipper » 29 Mar 2019, 23:15

...During those periods when the priesthood to perform the saving ordinances of the gospel was not upon the earth, there were millions who lived, many of whom were faithful souls. If there hadn’t been a way by which the saving ordinances of the gospel could be performed for those who thus died without the knowledge of the gospel, the gates of hell would have prevailed against our Father’s plan of salvation.



I'm not sure how to explain my curiosity about this quote from Harold B. Lee from Teachings of the Presidents of the Church, it's not doubt but it doesn't make sense, am I allowed to say that? The powers of evil or the powers of death over those who had not heard the gospel because it was not on the earth would not be a consequence of action or choice but of circumstance for billions of people. Is performing baptism for the dead for all those described the only way to free them from chains of hell? Surely that ordinance is not going to be performed for every person thru time who did not have a chance to hear the gospel. I have to add that I had a very spiritual experience the one and only time that I performed confirmations in the temple several years ago.

Minyan Man
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Re: Saving Ordinances

Post by Minyan Man » 30 Mar 2019, 07:46

Kipper, can you describe what your spiritual experience was? It would help to better understand what your talking about.

Kipper
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Re: Saving Ordinances

Post by Kipper » 30 Mar 2019, 08:27

I'm sorry I wasn't clear, if only to myself :\ . I'm asking why is it said to us that baptism for the dead is the only way for the dead to be saved? Surely not everyone thru time who died and not heard the gospel is going to be bound by chains of death and hell unless that ordinance is performed for them. There's no way to account for them all. And, what about those who have died and heard gospel, why do we perform the ordnance for for them? Not saying I don't believe any of this, it just doesn't make sense just like many other doctrine I am taught and don't ask about. That said, shortly after I received my own endowment and TR I was with the youth who were being baptised for the dead and I was doing the confirmations and had an undeniable spiritual experience with every name I announced and confirmed. Thank you for asking for clarity, hope that helped.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Saving Ordinances

Post by DarkJedi » 30 Mar 2019, 11:55

Wearing my orthodox hat: Our doctrine is that no one can enter the kingdom of heaven without baptism. We're not alone in that, many other Christians also believe that. We also believe that God provided a way for all of those who were not baptized in this life to have the ordinance done by proxy in the temple. A little deeper in that doctrine is that during the millennium all of us will spend all or most of the thousand years in the temple doing that temple work and that God will make the needed information known to us.

Hat off: I don't believe that either. I am a universalist. I believe we will all be saved and even exalted and I don't believe baptism or other temple or saving ordinances are necessary for that.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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SamBee
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Re: Saving Ordinances

Post by SamBee » 30 Mar 2019, 13:21

DarkJedi wrote:
30 Mar 2019, 11:55
Hat off: I don't believe that either. I am a universalist. I believe we will all be saved and even exalted and I don't believe baptism or other temple or saving ordinances are necessary for that.
I have to admit that I am not a Universalist. Some people are truly bad. Ed Gein. Pol Pot. Beria. Dr Mengele. I can't see a heaven with people like that. Do we really want to think the Butcher of Belsen gets the same reward as Father Damian of Molokai? That said, there are many people who have done bad things who have had a difficult life that led them there, and I believe God will take that into account. I don't think most people are necessarily destined for Hell.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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DarkJedi
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Re: Saving Ordinances

Post by DarkJedi » 30 Mar 2019, 18:30

SamBee wrote:
30 Mar 2019, 13:21
DarkJedi wrote:
30 Mar 2019, 11:55
Hat off: I don't believe that either. I am a universalist. I believe we will all be saved and even exalted and I don't believe baptism or other temple or saving ordinances are necessary for that.
I have to admit that I am not a Universalist. Some people are truly bad. Ed Gein. Pol Pot. Beria. Dr Mengele. I can't see a heaven with people like that. Do we really want to think the Butcher of Belsen gets the same reward as Father Damian of Molokai? That said, there are many people who have done bad things who have had a difficult life that led them there, and I believe God will take that into account. I don't think most people are necessarily destined for Hell.
I also don't believe there's a hell (or outer darkness or anything like unto them) in the sense that there's a place for eternal suffering, but that's part of universalism. I believe the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ is truly infinite and that we are all therefore capable of repenting and being forgiven - albeit that may take eons. Much of Joseph's early and even later teachings were universalist (keeping in mind that it was not only his history that had been whitewashed).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Saving Ordinances

Post by Curt Sunshine » 30 Mar 2019, 18:52

They all are symbolic; therefore, they are important to the extent people believe they are important.

I don't believe they are necessary, but I absolutely LOVE the concept that they are necessary AND available to everyone - especially compared to almost all other Christian theologies (and most non-Christian ones). To me, that paradox can serve everyone, if they truly believe both OR simply appreciate the balance.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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dande48
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Re: Saving Ordinances

Post by dande48 » 30 Mar 2019, 21:33

Curt Sunshine wrote:
30 Mar 2019, 18:52
I don't believe they are necessary, but I absolutely LOVE the concept that they are necessary AND available to everyone - especially compared to almost all other Christian theologies (and most non-Christian ones).
What non-Christian theologies did you have in mind? I can't think of many that have "saving ordinances". In fact, I don't know of many other Christian denominations which require specific ordinances for salvation, including baptism, outside of the Catholics. Not even the Baptists believe baptism is required for salvation.
Curt Sunshine wrote:
30 Mar 2019, 18:52
I don't believe they are necessary, but I absolutely LOVE the concept that they are necessary AND available to everyone...
... through the LDS Church.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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SamBee
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Re: Saving Ordinances

Post by SamBee » 31 Mar 2019, 03:09

DarkJedi wrote:
30 Mar 2019, 18:30
SamBee wrote:
30 Mar 2019, 13:21
DarkJedi wrote:
30 Mar 2019, 11:55
Hat off: I don't believe that either. I am a universalist. I believe we will all be saved and even exalted and I don't believe baptism or other temple or saving ordinances are necessary for that.
I have to admit that I am not a Universalist. Some people are truly bad. Ed Gein. Pol Pot. Beria. Dr Mengele. I can't see a heaven with people like that. Do we really want to think the Butcher of Belsen gets the same reward as Father Damian of Molokai? That said, there are many people who have done bad things who have had a difficult life that led them there, and I believe God will take that into account. I don't think most people are necessarily destined for Hell.
I also don't believe there's a hell (or outer darkness or anything like unto them) in the sense that there's a place for eternal suffering, but that's part of universalism. I believe the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ is truly infinite and that we are all therefore capable of repenting and being forgiven - albeit that may take eons. Much of Joseph's early and even later teachings were universalist (keeping in mind that it was not only his history that had been whitewashed).
This is my problem with universalism. The people I mentioned were monsters. One adorned his bed and furniture with human body parts and killed dozens of people... How can we say that such a person deserves the same reward as someone who works in a soup kitchen most of their lives? We can't. It's a horrific idea.

I appreciate many live on the boundary between good and evil, but there are some who are truly beyond the Pale.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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DarkJedi
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Re: Saving Ordinances

Post by DarkJedi » 31 Mar 2019, 05:34

SamBee wrote:
31 Mar 2019, 03:09
DarkJedi wrote:
30 Mar 2019, 18:30
SamBee wrote:
30 Mar 2019, 13:21


I have to admit that I am not a Universalist. Some people are truly bad. Ed Gein. Pol Pot. Beria. Dr Mengele. I can't see a heaven with people like that. Do we really want to think the Butcher of Belsen gets the same reward as Father Damian of Molokai? That said, there are many people who have done bad things who have had a difficult life that led them there, and I believe God will take that into account. I don't think most people are necessarily destined for Hell.
I also don't believe there's a hell (or outer darkness or anything like unto them) in the sense that there's a place for eternal suffering, but that's part of universalism. I believe the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ is truly infinite and that we are all therefore capable of repenting and being forgiven - albeit that may take eons. Much of Joseph's early and even later teachings were universalist (keeping in mind that it was not only his history that had been whitewashed).
This is my problem with universalism. The people I mentioned were monsters. One adorned his bed and furniture with human body parts and killed dozens of people... How can we say that such a person deserves the same reward as someone who works in a soup kitchen most of their lives? We can't. It's a horrific idea.

I appreciate many live on the boundary between good and evil, but there are some who are truly beyond the Pale.
I also believe God loves each of us unconditionally and wants nothing more than for us to return. I do not believe that a loving God made those people that way nor that a loving God would allow Satan such influence that they could never return to Him. Likewise, mental illness is an earthly illness just like diabetes or the flu - and I believe most of these "monsters" suffer from mental illness.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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