Why Miracles?

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
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dande48
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Re: Why Miracles?

Post by dande48 » 20 Feb 2019, 22:18

Curt Sunshine wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 22:09
And does the distinction matter in the end?
I think it does. Cause and effect. Truth vs deception. Reliability vs unsubstantiation. I think it matters very much.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

Roy
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Re: Why Miracles?

Post by Roy » 21 Feb 2019, 13:19

Curt Sunshine wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 22:09
People don't believe what they see. They see what they believe.
Yes, we all suffer from confirmation bias. I remember Hawkgrrrl saying something about never being conscious of being in a state of error, because as soon as you recognize the error your mind changes and then you are in a state of correctness again. We are all predisposed to overconfidence in our perspectives.
dande48 wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 22:18
Curt Sunshine wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 22:09
And does the distinction matter in the end?
I think it does. Cause and effect. Truth vs deception. Reliability vs unsubstantiation. I think it matters very much.
I can't answer for Curt but I believe he is saying that if it works then it works! If belief in miracles give you confidence in your narrative and that narrative gives you meaning, purpose, and a higher quality of life than you otherwise would have then it might not matter if the miracles are real or not. Some qualifiers, I feel that there can be significant pain in believing in miracles that then are all but proven to be false. I feel that it is better to believe in miracles with a very low possibility of being disproven. Also I feel it to be more helpful if your narrative does not hurt yourself or others - do no harm, treat others as you want to be treated and all that Jazz.
If there is no afterlife, then none of the believers in an afterlife will be disappointed! :lol:
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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dande48
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Re: Why Miracles?

Post by dande48 » 21 Feb 2019, 16:15

Roy wrote:
21 Feb 2019, 13:19
I can't answer for Curt but I believe he is saying that if it works then it works! If belief in miracles give you confidence in your narrative and that narrative gives you meaning, purpose, and a higher quality of life than you otherwise would have then it might not matter if the miracles are real or not...
If there is no afterlife, then none of the believers in an afterlife will be disappointed! :lol:
But that's kind of my point. Miracles, and the stories of miracles serve a purpose. And that purpose might not be so great. Believing in the afterlife itself might do no harm... but once you start getting into the details, it can do REAL harm. For example, telling someone they'll be separated from their family for all time and eternity, if they don't do x, y, and z. Or the fact that so many religious "scientific predictions" have come entirely false, which has prevented greater knowledge and applicable insight from being spread.

Or how the many "miracles" performed by televangelists ("in the name of Jesus"), like Robert Tilton, have convinced those with severe illness or extreme debt, to instead "plant the seed of their faith" by donating exhorbitant amounts of funds to their organization in hoped of a miracle, instead of investing in those things which would have saved them.

If there is no afterlife, that doesn't mean certain beliefs about the afterlife did no harm. I'm all in favor of "doing no harm". But even doctors must put those afflicted by certain diseases under the scalple in order to save them.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

Roy
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Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Why Miracles?

Post by Roy » 21 Feb 2019, 17:12

dande48 wrote:
21 Feb 2019, 16:15
But that's kind of my point. Miracles, and the stories of miracles serve a purpose. And that purpose might not be so great. Believing in the afterlife itself might do no harm... but once you start getting into the details, it can do REAL harm.
I agree.

My strategy to StayLDS means that I try to maximize the benefits of Mormonism while at the same time attempting to mitigate the bad. The end result could be called watered down Mormonism. Lots of symbolism, good and ethical choices, love, mercy, grace, and forgiveness. It is a work in progress.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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SilentDawning
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Re: Why Miracles?

Post by SilentDawning » 22 Feb 2019, 00:29

MIracles can be a reward for having faith and living a good life. Although it's not guaranteed.

Miracles can help people believe when otherwise, they wouldn't, like Paul's Road to Damascus experience

But I think the concept of miracles is abused in our church. I have heard so many people claim miracles which in turn, makes me silently call "emBelliShment".
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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